RENEG LB Phillip Wheeler, MIA (4yr/400cb)

[PencilGeeks]

So I am all-in on the Miami D this year! Mr. Wheeler proved he was a 3-down LB in Oakland last year and should be great in the middle with Mr. Ellerbe: Take him from 2yr/100cb to 4yr/400cb

[Liquid Swords]

I'm showing on the 2012 Roster App that this takes the Geeks over the active roster contract years cap (2 years over limit).

Please check to make sure I'm not missing a cut somewhere; otherwise, I guess a ruling needs to be made on what to do.

[PencilGeeks]

On my main page of your roster app it shows me at 65 years .. on the info page at 67 .. I think the 2 year difference is not taking into account the +2 years from the IR players?

[Liquid Swords]

Calculations are correct.

Active roster shows 65 years. On IR you have 2 players at 2 years each (4 total years) and are given back 1 year for each player, thus you have 2 contract years occupying IR.

[PencilGeeks]

So we're good since I only have 65 years on the Active Roster?

[Liquid Swords]

No. You have 2 years on IR that also count toward your active roster...thus the reason you are 2 years over the cap

[PencilGeeks]

BUT.. When a player is placed on IR teams will also receive 1 temporary "contract year". This temporary year may be used at the discretion of the team for signing a replacement, etc. As soon as the injured player is removed from IR, the temporary year is revoked and the team must immediately return its roster to a total of 65 contract years.

So that would be +2 Years (67 years) until they are moved back off IR (before the Rookie Draft)..

[Liquid Swords]

IR years count against active roster space. You just receive 1 contract year of relief per player on IR.

This is how I read and understand the meaning of the rule:

If you are at roster cap maximum (65 years) with no one on IR and then have someone get injured, you can place them on IR. This gives you 1 year or relief (now down to 64 years) so you can sign someone else for 1 year (now back to 65 years). Once you move the injured player back to active (now at 66 years), you must make a cut to get back down to 65 years.

Here is the rule concerning contract years cap (take note of 1st sentence in 4th paragraph):

There will be 2 types of Contract Years Caps per team, an Active Roster Cap which is 65 years (5 max/player), and a Taxi Squad Cap which is 32 years (5 max/player). There is no Contract Year cap on the Practice Squad, however no player can be given a contract for more than 5 years.

A team's contract years obligation is determined by the total number of years, including the current season, that remain on player contracts. Teams must adhere to a maximum of 65 contract years for their team, meaning that the total number of years of all player contracts must not exceed 65.

There is also a limit for the length of any individual contract. No contract can be for more than 5 years.

As with the salary cap, no team may exceed this cap at any time. Extra contract years do not carry over from season to season. Contract years may not be traded to other teams in order to increase their cap.

If a team makes an acquisition (trade or free agent signing) which places them over the contract years cap, they must release appropriate personnel to meet the cap restriction. If a team fails to get under the contract year cap within 24 hours, roster penalties will apply.

[PencilGeeks]

Sorry, that is not my interpretation: the IR rule doesn't say anything about "relief" (subtraction, as in your example above) but it does say "receive" (the addition of) a temporary year for each player on IR. Based on this understanding is why I renegotiated Wheeler and felt I was within my Cap to do so.. (Note that on your app I am at 65 years on the AR Page)..

[Liquid Swords]

On the app you are at 67 years...look at the box on the top (Total: 65, Used: 67) of the Geeks tab.

Like I said, we need a ruling on this.

[Burt the Butcher]

I have not looked at the app yet, but if you are at 65 years, and you put two guys on IR, then you now have 2 years to use towards signing other player(s)...there is no other interpretation of the rule....

I will review this uh more detail tomorrow

[PencilGeeks]

Thanks Burt.. if I honestly thought I needed to clear 2 more years (and I still don't think I needed to) to reneg Wheeler I would've cut a couple more 1 year players like Bironas and Henderson (taking a small soft-cap hit) rather than letting them expire to zero years..

[Burt the Butcher]

I am not sure what you are saying Hans....this rule has always been this way...
If you have 65 years, and you put one guy on IR who has 4 years, it's like you now are at 64 years, so you have 1 year to sign replacement.
how do you think its supposed to works?

[Preds]

Pat and Burt asked for my input since I co-founded SACD and helped develop the ruleset.

IMO, Geeks interpretation is 100% correct. When you place a player on IR you gain an additional contract year, in essence a 66th and/or 67th year (if you place 2 players on IR). Your roster does not have to be maxed out to use the year(s) gained, though your years may well be maxed out and placing 2 players on IR could give you 2 years to add to 1 player who fills their spot (whether by trade, renegotiation, free agency, etc). MFL will show the team at 66 or 67 years, although the roster app should show them at 65 years as long as the formulas haven't been edited or accidentally deleted over the years.

Pat, if you play with the IR section, if the years are 1 you won't see any change in the years status for the team overall, if they're 2 or more 1 year is deducted before being added to the overall team years for each player on IR.

My 2 cents. Hope it helps!

[Preds]

Wait, I haven't seen the app and may have misunderstood the issue.

How many contract years does he have in the Active Roster section? As long as that's 63 he's fine if he has 4 years in the IR section. If he has 65 years ACTIVE with the reneg of this player, plus 4 years on IR than he is indeed over the Years cap.

Count the years in the Active Roster section manually to make sure it's correct if need be, then take the IR years and subract 1 year for each player on IR, and add the balance to the active roster years. The combined number cannot exceed 65.

I.E. 63 years on active roster, 4 on IR for 2 players, less 2 years for 2 players being on IR = a total of 2 for IR and 63 for Active and a total of 65.

[Preds]

OK, I just downloaded the 2012 app and looked it over, and change my original opinion.

Geeks has 65 active years, plus 4 years on IR, minus 2 years for 2 players being on IR, for a total of 67 years and is indeed violating the Years Cap. IR years do indeed count against the active roster years, and with 4 years on IR less the 2 years credit Geeks still has 2 years counting against the active roster years for those players which get added to his active years total.

Put another way, with the 2 IR players, Geeks has a total of 69 contract years, less 2 years for the two players on IR for a total of 67 years. That is 2 years beyond the 65 year cap.

Sorry I misunderstood the issue originally. I thought you guys were seeing 67 on MFL and not taking the 2 IR year credits into account.

[Burt the Butcher]

Still waiting on response from Hans...not sure what your thinking is on this..are you saying you feel the ENTIRE contracts of players on IR should NOT count against the cap?

[PencilGeeks]

Originally Posted by Preds

Put another way, with the 2 IR players, Geeks has a total of 69 contract years, less 2 years for the two players on IR for a total of 67 years. That is 2 years beyond the 65 year cap.

The way Preds explains it now makes sense to me.. Basically I thought that with the +2yr for the guys on IR it was okay to have 67 years on the Active Roster.. And this was based on how the IR Rules section reads as it does not mention that the original IR player salary still counts against the cap. In fact it implies completely the opposite by saying that: As soon as the injured player is removed from IR, the temporary year is revoked and the team must immediately return its roster to a total of 65 contract years. To me this indicates the roster total was okay to have more than 65 years while the player was on IR..

But whatever .. water-under-the-bridge I guess.. If I had understood this gobbly-gook earlier, in order to reneg Wheeler I would’ve simply cut Rob Bironas (1yr/180cb) and Erin Henderson (1yr/190cb) and taken the soft-cap hit to make room. The other reasonable option at the time would’ve been to not reneg Wheeler at all and I would’ve left him alone at 2yr/100cb..

This is exhausting... lets move on.. What is the decision/penalty?

[Preds]

Originally Posted by PencilGeeks

The way Preds explains it now makes sense to me.. Basically I thought that with the +2yr for the guys on IR it was okay to have 67 years on the Active Roster.. And this was based on how the IR Rules section reads as it does not mention that the original IR player salary still counts against the cap. In fact it implies completely the opposite by saying that: As soon as the injured player is removed from IR, the temporary year is revoked and the team must immediately return its roster to a total of 65 contract years. To me this indicates the roster total was okay to have more than 65 years while the player was on IR..

But whatever .. water-under-the-bridge I guess.. If I had understood this gobbly-gook earlier, in order to reneg Wheeler I would’ve simply cut Rob Bironas (1yr/180cb) and Erin Henderson (1yr/190cb) and taken the soft-cap hit to make room. The other reasonable option at the time would’ve been to not reneg Wheeler at all and I would’ve left him alone at 2yr/100cb..

This is exhausting... lets move on.. What is the decision/penalty?

As an outside opinion, I'd suggest this was not an intentional abuse and a misunderstanding of the rules. I'd allow the 2 cuts Hans posted above as 2012 soft cap hits and allow the 4 year extension as clearly the intent of the trade was to gain the contract extension.

Maybe give him a small CB fine if you feel compelled, but this wasn't a blatant abuse IMO.

[Burt the Butcher]

Well, I think I have always been pretty fair, when it comes to misunderstanding a rule, as opposed to just forgetting to do something, or not calculating properly.

I think its fair to allow the cuts to take place and count them as soft cap cuts, to get back into compliance.

We have same problem next year, then it is oversight and not misunderstanding.

I would be interested to know if there are other who did not understand the IR rule, and how it works? This is first time this has come up as a misunderstanding...

[pacificscrub]

Clear as mud. I understand the IR rule, but I also see where the misunderstanding was. I second Preds' recommendation. Let Hans make his cuts with no additional penalties (beyond the soft cap hits for those additional cuts) and stake him to an ant hill if he does it again.

[Burt the Butcher]

ok, well not really sure how to make it clearer....and not hearing from anyone else who is not understanding it...

so I'll make the cuts on the 2012 and 2013 sites, and we'll carry on...

[Liquid Swords]

sounds good. I'll update roster apps accordingly