Rookie Salaries and the DS

[Preds]

I have to say, I honestly feel the rookie salares not only start about 20% too high IMO, but don't drop quick enough as well. With 2004 picks starting to swap hands, I think we need to address this BEFORE the 2003 Rookie draft gets underway.

Before I waste time proposing a salary scale, I'd like to see if there is support for lowering the rookie salaries or not.

Also, I think we should consider expanding the rookie draft to 4 rounds, with all 4th round picks at the league minimum. I'd propose that this could occur THIS year since everyteam would have the same benefit. We just drafted a 4th round in my other cap league, and you'd be surprised with the potential sleepers that were still available.

Finally, seeing as the rookie salary scale will not change this year in any case, I think it might be prudent to explore moving up the DS expansion to 5 players/3500 due to occur next year to this season to allow teams a bit more room to handle players currently on their DS and the incoming rookie salaries which are just far too high IMO.

Please chime in if you like or dislike any and or all of these suggestions so that we can see if some votes can occur before the rookie draft gets going.

[Urza's Ragers]

I don't think the starting salary for the 1st rd rookies are too high, you are basing it on potential so I like that too stay. I do however agree that they don't drop fast enuff, for me I don't think there is much left after the first rd, look at this yrs talents. That's just me, I don't think I do enuff research though.

I'm open to opening more slots to the DS but that just more for me to manage. Dang you Mike with all these suggestions

[Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers]

I've always felt the rookie salaries were a bit too high. The top rookies should still command fairly high salaries (relative to rookies) but the rest are overpriced IMO. Personally, I'd rather wait for other rookie FAs and try to sign them cheap.

I would be in favor or revising the rookie salary to something that is more reasonable. I always felt that teams that draft good players should benefit with inexpensive talent.

I posted something last year about a steeper rookie draft salary curve. I feel a flat curve is not very realistic and the middle and late round picks are hurt the most with the current salary. While they may turn out to be good picks they're salary is not worth the risk. Very rarely does a 2nd/3rd round draft pick become a star. More often than not they are serviceable, but not at their rookie salary.

[Preds]

Originally posted by Urza's Ragers
I don't think the starting salary for the 1st rd rookies are too high, you are basing it on potential so I like that too stay. I do however agree that they don't drop fast enuff, for me I don't think there is much left after the first rd, look at this yrs talents. That's just me, I don't think I do enuff research though.

I'm open to opening more slots to the DS but that just more for me to manage. Dang you Mike with all these suggestions

I agree the 1.1 selection isn't too bad, but a tad high IMO.. but they really take far to long to drop and as is it's almost a penalty having rookie picks. Maybe excelerating the decline on scale for 2004 is the 1st step we could make (in addition to moving up the DS expansion for this year and expanding to a 4th round).

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

I think the salaries for the first round RBs are about right. Those are the players we're going to be signing to long-term contracts... and expect them to be producing in those areas. We might look at lowering the WRs and QBs salaries... as it usually takes 2-3+ years for them to develop and produce. I also feel the salaries in round 2 should drop a lot more dramatically. The way it stands now, except for RBs, it's not worth drafting a WR in round two (their contract is just way too high). I haven't looked too closely to the QBs scale...

As for adding a 4th round... don't think that would help us this year, unless we increase the DS again. I agree that sleepers can be found if we had a 4th round... but given the fact that many of us are already carrying a full 3-man DS squad, and we're only increasing 1 more spot this year, it's not worth spending the time on a 4th round... this year. Now I'm all in favor of increasing the DS to 5 spots... and if that's the case, then looking at adding a 4th round might work.

However, I think we're already too deep into the preseason to make any changes for THIS year. Strategy has already been employed by many of us, in terms of trading away or acquiring draft picks. We need to be thinking down the road for any kinds of changes like this.

[Jersey]

I think they are all way to high!!!!! Lets remember they are rookies and most of the time wont produce for 2-3 years. and if you draft a guy who does produce...great....you had a cheap rookie and you deserve a break for scouting and having a good draft. Come on....just because a RB has potential doesn't mean he's worth 1200 or 10% of the teams payroll. If we drop the scale 20% I think I would be much happier!!!

[Flaxwless]

I'd be a go for dropping the starting prices a bit.

[Mutts]

I'd like to see all three proposals inacted... and personally would like to see it done this year. If we wait until next year, we won't see any real results from the changes for at least a couple of years after that. Since we've identified a problem almost all owners seem to agree with... I think we should correct it now.

[Jersey]

I would like to change it this year also

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

If it's the will of the league, then so be it...

HOWEVER... when I traded away my first and second round picks last year, it was with the current rookie salaries in mind. If I knew the salary scale was going to be lowered (especially if it's lowered drastically) I might have done things differently.

Up until now, this league has done a great job of setting potential rules changes far in advance, and giving people enough lead time to incorporate it into strategy. I'd hate to see us start down that slippery slope of rules changes "on a whim."

To borrow a line of reasoning from Mike, we've all known the rules for over a year now... and the first 4+ months of the off-season. Why are we looking to change things 1 week before the rookie draft?

Having said that... If the league insists, then I think if we gradually lower it this year, with the intent on lowering it again next year to a more reasonable level, then I could go with that. If we move to lower it dramatically this year, I'd be against it (not because I don't think it needs to be lowered, but because of strategic moves already made).

Just my opinion...

[Flaxwless]

Yes, agreed.

Although I have TWO first round draft picks this year. I would believe that it would be unfair to lower the scale right before this years draft. Many people traded away their rookie picks because they realized the high rookie scale.

The reason though that this is being brought up now is the rookie draft is coming up. This means NEXT years rookie picks are bound to be traded and it would be wise to get a change now so that owners understand that next years scale be lowered.

However if the majority would like to lower this years scale I wouldn't put up much of a fight! =)

I'd just vote "No, changes this year" just for the record.

[Mutts]

The Opihi have a valid point, and this year probably isn't fair to lower the salary scale. However, I see no problem with expanding the DS and adding a 4th round to the draft.

[Nittany Dodgers]

I'm at a loss for words. We just spent two months looking at rules and now a matter of days before the draft (if people ever stop bidding on Ed McCaffrey anyway) and we want to rework the salary scale? No way, not this year, not after picks have been traded after their value has been determined.

As for next year, I'm still in favor of seeing how this draft goes and see how contract years are assigned in the fall before determining if we need to adjust the scale. Last year we had an extremely balanced draft as far as positions, and I think that is a great thing. If the salaries are prohibitive so that it doesn't go all RBs in the first round, then I think the scale works.

As far as what I think of the prices right now, I think they are good. I think, and always have thought, that there should be a premium on drafted players. You have the right to lock these players up long term without exposing them to the free market. If you play your cards right, you can then RFA them, and have the ultimate right to match. You should pay the premium for these privlages, and not be able to land say an Edgerin James quality player long term for an under market contract just because you have the #1 pick. The salaries should be prohibitive in my opinion.

[Mutts]

I don't really think adjusting the salary scale is an issue. Its not going to happen this year, I assume everyone realizes the unfairness.

No one has addressed the Predators thoughts on expanding DS slots and adding a 4th round to the draft, however. That is what I'm most interested in before we get this started.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

The DS is already expanded to 4 spots... I'm fine with making it 5. Not sure we need another round... but it's nothing I'd lose sleep over. Bring it on (4th round)... keep it at 3 rounds... I don't care. Not a big issue.

[Flaxwless]

Well as it is I'm against expanding the DS. I personally think it is fine.

Right now I have 2 of my 4 DS spots filled but I'll be promoting Jolley to active squad and then I'll have enough room for my three rookies and Westbrook.

Then in 2004 the DS squad will expand to it's final size of 5 spots, 3500 cap, 14 years. Which I say is perfect.

The purpose of the DS is for a rookie to develop for a year or two and then be promoted to the active squad. Which it is setup to do just fine. Taking a quick look at teams DS players there seems to be on every squad 1 or 2 players that should be promoted to active sqaud. Leaving what should be enough room for the 3 rookies this year.

THE problem though is owners are hesitant to promote players from the DS because the rookie salaries (particularly the second and thrid rounders) are too high.

So the problem is NOT the DS but it just goes back to the rookie contracts. So I'd say no to DS expansion...even if we add a 4th round. At the rookie minimum they wouldn't be too hard to stash on the active squad.

So be patient and wait until the DS is expanded next year to it's final size of 5 spots. Once the rookie salaries get fixed then people will start promoting DS players.

So that's a big no from me.

[Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers]

The Dodgers make some good points but I still feel that the rookie salaries should be lowerd because teams should be rewarded for making good draft picks. If we are so worried about teams locking rookie players up to long term contracts then perhaps we can borrow from the NBA system. Make the rookie contracts max out at 3 or 4 years. Then after that player goes on the market they can receive a max 5 year contract. Just a thought, it would still reward teams who draft well but after 3 or 4 years their salaries would be more in line with market value. The only problem I forsee is that some rookies (QBs or WRs) take 2 to 3 years to develope. Like I said, just a thought on what we could do.

I'm definitely against adjusting the rookie salary scale this year, not just because I have no picks but rather it is way too late to make such important changes this year.

[Nittany Dodgers]

BDSC, interesting idea on capping rookie salary years, but yes the obvious problem is that most positions, other than RB, require multiple years prior to becoming productive in the NFL (outside of the notable exceptions of course).

As far as adding a fourth round at minimum salary, I could go either way. If no one else has a problem with it, so be it. I don't have enough spots on my DS for four rookies, so I can't take advantage of it, but I won't stop anyone else.

As far as expanding the DS this year, I would vote no. We decided to expand gradually to 5 total spots (I assume we had some reason for it). I think with teams trading away picks, and trading for more additional picks, this would be almost as unfair as changing the salary scale now. I don't know if it has happened, but a team could have traded away rookie picks up to this point knowing they didn't have enough DS spots for developing players. If we decide to expand now, they might not have made that trade. That would be unfair. Of course if this hasn't happened, and everyone else is for it, so be it I guess.

[Flaxwless]

Everyone except me!

I say no DS expansion, wait until it's the full 5, and fix the rookie salaries!

[Preds]

k, I've been quiet since my initial post... here's my take

[rant begins]

I think it's clear that rookie salaries are just too friggin high. WR's take years to develop and none of them drafted last year justify their salaries in their 2nd season, not even close. Further, aside from 1-2 impact RB each year the salaries accross the board just aren't justified.

Your going to begin seeing last years rooks cut to make room for this years. Watch. I don't think that was the idea of the DS. Also, moving an overpaid rook up to the active roster in place of an equally if not more productive vet at half the price just doesn't make fiscal sense.

I honestly think the scale needs to go down much quicker, and in most cases should start a tad lower.

I wanted to address this BEFORE significant 2004 rookie picks started trading hands... but alas, even that is too late now with picks in all 3 rounds next year moved already.

So instead of fixing a definitive flaw, we'll likely deal with overpriced rooks for yet another year because if you guys couldn't agree on it BEFORE 1st and 2nd round picks in 2004 were moved, then there is no way in hell I'll support a reduction next year knowing that you all opposed considering it for 2003 because picks had already changed hands. I'll now use that same logic for 2004, meaning we're now SOL until 2005. I may just pass on some of my picks due to the stupidity.

Last year we fixed some flagrant flaws in this league, some still exist, and the rookie salary scale is one of them.

Knowing that reducing the scale for 2003 was unlikely (in fact I mentioned we should do it for 2004, not 2003) I proposed accelerating the DS expansion up a year to 5 men/3500. Not so much for the 5th man, but more so for the increased cap. With the rookies from last year and this year so overpriced, I felt it was a reasonable compromise until the salary structure could be fixed next year (which appears too late now).

As for the 4th round suggestion, the logic there is that there may be a couple players who could be solid producers, and at the league minimum we would be rewarding teams for drafting very well, or just plain getting lucky. Whatever, I can tell you there is talent past the 3rd round. In fact, I'd bet most players in the 4th would make the active rosters, not the DS, due to their cheap salaries.

Anyhow, I'm frustrated now that so many 2004 picks have changed hands and nobody could agree to make the needed fix in the scale beforehand. The 3rd rounders were one thing, but now we have 1st and 2nd rounders moved as well.

As I said earlier, I will no longer support a reduction in 2004 rookie salaries because too few of you were wise enough to see the problem and tackle it head on before it became a significant issue. The rookie draft in this league is almost a penalty, and significantly reduced in value IMO. You will all see what I'm saying in another year or two.

[end of rant]

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

So let's talk 2005! What better time than now to get it going?! Let's open a new thread with proposals. I'm in this league for the long haul... if in the course of the next two years we have to cut rookies and then re-bid on them in the open market, so be it. That's one of the quirks of this league. Should it be corrected? Probably. Is it detrimental to the league as is? Not in my opinion. We can manage for a couple of years like this... but in the meantime, let's get a solid proposal for 2005!

[Jersey]

THANK YOU MIKE!!!!

NOW SOMEONE ELSE FEELS THE WAY I DID LAST YEAR.....

Let's just call this squad our reserve squad....not a DS.....It's actually an advantage to 1 draft in the later rounds and 2 not have as many picks or heck...no picks at all.....wait until someone cuts a young player that has been in the league 1 or 2 years and then sign him to a 200 or so DS contract.

And I also agree with Mike and will vote down any future reductions in salary scale. It's pretty simple math.....damn....I can barely balance a check book but I can definitely see what a runaway train this is going to turn out to be.


I can't find my post from last year....but I was bitching about it last year and everyone said it was about right......and I still disagree!!!!

Lets save ourselves a lot of headache and reduce it now....damn....we will all benefit from it sooner or later!!!!

[Mutts]

Alright guys, emotions are running high and we are on the verge of the 2003 Feeding Frenzy Rookie Draft. I believe everyone in this league now is in it for the long haul and therefore has the best intentions for the league at heart while they stake out their position on this issue. That being said, I think each of us is weighing in with our own particular bias because of each team's prior positioning moves. The fact of the matter is that we are now clearly thinking about, and agreeing to, a rather serious issue that needs our attention. We can push back any considerations until 2005, but the impact of those changes on decisions already made is only lessened... not eliminated. Contracts extending through the 2005 season have already been created. On the same token, changing a rookie salary scale the night before a draft begins seems a bit drastic.

We can't forget that we are building a league, however. I feel it is best to make room for problem-solving accomplished through league consensus to happen a little quicker than it might once the league is fully established. Maybe this should have been addressed a month ago when we were voting on rules changes... but as I said, we see the problem clearly now and are still in the preseason.

I propose a compromise. I think there seems to be some support for an expansion of the rookie draft to 4 rounds. I also feel that goes hand in hand with a realization of 5 DS spots in 2003. As Mike explained, adding the extra DS cap space now provides a crutch for a problem we all agree exists. As the other side of the compromise, I would hope that everyone would agree to a rookie salary scale adjustment in 2004. We know that the scale is hurting the league, I don't want that to happen again in 2004 just to prove a point.

So what do you guys think? I'd rather not announce the beginning of the 2003 draft while negative feelings abound.

[Preds]

Originally posted by Nittany Dodgers
I'm at a loss for words. We just spent two months looking at rules and now a matter of days before the draft (if people ever stop bidding on Ed McCaffrey anyway) and we want to rework the salary scale? No way, not this year, not after picks have been traded after their value has been determined.

Brian,

I feel a need to reply to this in-depth. As you know, when we worked the rule votes we tried to incorpoate everything that came up last year. This one came up prior to last years draft, but got pushed aside (in part by my own poor judgement). I felt we had to readdress it this year, but flat out forgot. I was so busy prior to my trip in April that I had little to no time to focus on the Frenzy, you stepped up a great deal and helped a lot, but this one was missed by me.

The rookie salary is big time flawed IMO... the general idea is good, however the scales start too high and don't drop quick enough. We are actually penalizing teams with draft picks, rather than rewarding them. Prudent FA moves are an easier and more sure way to rebuild a team than picks since the salaries are too high.

Just look at the Collins trade as an example of how devalued the picks are becoming. A mid 2nd and a 1st in 2004 for a backup QB on a 2 year cheap contract? It's crazy on the surface, but with the rookie salaries so high I can understand the Undead's logic.

I think everybody who has made deals needs to put their personal interests to the side, and look at the betterment of the league as a whole. I was asking to push up the DS expansion o help accomodate this years high scale intending to see it fixed in 2004.

But now, with at least 5-6 2004 picks changing hands, picks in every round I might add, I think we either can't make any changes until 2005, or might as well bite the bullet and do it now.

The salary structure is flat out too high... just ask yourself if you think activating a 2nd rd RB is worth anywhere from 800-510. Odds are he isn't when you can pick up a FA of equal value for half the cost off the wire. The Wr's and QB's are even worse.

I feel the following scale is more reflective of the value of rookies (including thier 1st few season in the NFL), and will make drafting more worthwhile.

Pos QB RB WR TE PK
1.01 800 1000 750 350 150
1.02 760 950 710 330 145
1.03 720 900 670 310 140
1.04 680 850 630 290 135
1.05 645 805 595 275 130
1.06 610 760 560 260 125
1.07 575 715 525 245 120
1.08 540 670 490 230 115
1.09 510 630 460 220 110
1.10 480 590 430 210 105
1.11 450 550 400 200 100
1.12 420 510 370 190 100

Pos QB RB WR TE PK
2.01 395 480 345 185 100
2.02 370 450 320 180 100
2.03 345 420 295 175 100
2.04 320 390 270 170 100
2.05 300 360 250 165 100
2.06 280 330 230 160 100
2.07 260 310 210 155 100
2.08 240 290 190 150 100
2.09 225 270 180 145 100
2.10 210 250 170 140 100
2.11 195 230 160 135 100
2.12 180 210 150 130 100

Pos QB RB WR TE PK
3.01 170 205 145 125 100
3.02 160 200 140 120 100
3.03 150 195 135 115 100
3.04 140 190 130 110 100
3.05 130 185 125 105 100
3.06 120 180 120 100 100
3.07 115 175 115 100 100
3.08 110 170 110 100 100
3.09 105 165 105 100 100
3.10 100 160 100 100 100
3.11 100 155 100 100 100
3.12 100 150 100 100 100

Further, I'd suggest rookie contracts increase 15% per year for their 1st contract.

I think with 2004 picks already changing hands, there is no reason not to debate this now. Teams need to look at the overall health of the league, not just their own teams. We need to make it easier for teams at the bottom to rebuild through the draft, and the revised scale above would help accomplish that IMO.

Will some teams get bargains? Sure they will. But that happens all the time with free agents too. The big name rookies will still get reasonable deals and their salaries will inflate a tad quicker.

Go ahead guys, blast away

[Flaxwless]

I certainly agree with you all on the sentiment of lowering the rookie salries but I just don't see the current situation as something to get so worked up about.

From what I've gathered from the replies to this post is that there is a serious movement going to fix the rookie salaries. The only problem now is when will it happen 2004 or 2005? I believe it would be in the best interest of fairness if we did not adjust the salaries this year.

So now we have some 1st and 2nd ROund picks in 2004 changing hands. Would it be simple enough to ask the parties involved if they would support a change in the rookie draft for 2004? With these talks occuring the parties (namely the one trading away it's picks) must have been aware of any future changes to the rookie scale and traded them away knowing that risk.

So before we discuss this even further and before we begin the 2003 Pena-- Rookie Draft, I think we should discuss wether or not everyone would be alright with fixing the Rookie Scale next year. If it's okayed we can continue our talks. If not then we could just wait until next offseason.

For the betterment of the league I hope that we can institute changes in 2004 rather than 2005. Or else we'd here people bitch again for another two years.

[Jersey]

Frank,

I realize that the easy solution is to put it off once agian until next year......but it's a problem that has to be changed now. How many more draft picks will be traded between now and next season? How many players are we going to have to cut in order for everyone to wake up? Let's all put our selfishness to side and do something good for the leageue and good for our own teams weather it's this year, next year or the following year. One more year of these overpriced salaries will take another 4 to work its self out!!

[Preds]

Sorry, but I can't support a change in 2004 any longer. This issue was brought up last year as well (on multiple occassions), when only a handfull of picks had traded hands, and the teams that had moved them refused to discuss 2003 because they had traded picks away.

Now I have to throw the same priniciples back at them. I tried a compromise "crutch" (as Jake put it) with the DS idea, but that go nowhere.

Now that multiple picks have changed hands in 2004, as they had year ago... I'll be pissed if a change is implemented that effects that draft. It's lost my support because a couple teams were to self serving after moving their picks and couldn't think in the best interests of the league. So why should they (or myself) now?

What I'm really po'd about it that generally there is a consensus that they are too high, yet we can't agree on corrective action witht first looking at our teams. I have multiple picks in this draft, I have a plan to fit em all in, but the salaries are so high it precludes me from taking the best available player and forces me to look far to long at TE's and K's. I tried suggesting moving the DS expansion up to make it more fair for this years draftees while expecting 2004 to see lower salaries. Only Jake seemed to grasp the concept.

Basicallythe draft is just far more restrictive then it should be, and we've done nothing to correct it...

Whatever, I'm done ranting. But my vote is no for 2004... se we can all wait for 2005 (woo hoo) and have a 3rd year of inflated rookie salaries).

Cheers

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I am a bit confused here. I posted a thread on this topic back on February 5th. It got some discussion and we decided not to make any changes. Now three months later right as the draft is about to start it has re-surfaced. I am all for making this league better and making sure it is viable for years to come, however we have a rules committee and a process for making changes. I would suggest that we add an official rule going forward that no change can be enacted until 12 months after it is approved via a league vote. This should help eliminate this from becoming an issue again.I

[Preds]

Matt,

I wasn't pushing changes for 2003 intitially, I wanted it fixed before we got too far into 2004 picks changing hands, which has now occurred. I pushed for a 2004 correction, with a crutch to aid in 2003 with the extra DS dollars by moving our expansion up a year to accomadate the inflated salaries.

Now, with multiple 2004 picks changing hands, I refuse to consider an adjustment for next year unless we also adjust this years. It's just patently unfair.

Which leaves us at 2005, and a broken system for 2 more drafts that will impact our rosters the next 4-6 years.

Think about the longterm effects of these salaries... we've made the opposite happen from the inagural draft were salaries were too low in certain instances.

The system is broke, and we're letting it linger... which impacts us for many years down the road.

[Mutts]

So is my compromise simply dead in the water? No one has addressed it and I think it does alot to address the problem in a prudent fashion. I won't agree with any rule calling for an entire year to enact rules changes until at least the 5th year of the Frenzy's existence. We are building a league from the ground up, and if we identify a serious problem... some owners may just have to take one for the team, for the betterment of the league. Otherwise, the ramifications could drag out for many years. For whatever reason, when this issue was brought up in the past most owners agreed there was no problem with the salary scale. That says to me that the owners who traded away their picks were not doing so based on a perceived problem with the salary scale, but did so considering everything to be fair and equal. It now seems that most everyone has realized that this is not the case. So why is it that owners are claiming a disadvantage after trading away all their picks they considered to be too high priced, but they also did not take issue with the salary scale when it was last brought up (I guess in February)?

Consider the compromise guys. There is no reason to go into a season with a division like this.