Roster App Problem

[Liquid Swords]

I just realized a problem with the Roster App when reading a previous post in the roster app thread about the IR not being calculated properly.

Due to this a couple of teams are currently in roster violation, although no fault of their own as the roster app was reporting the wrong cap and contract year space when a player was placed on the IR.

I'm not sure what to do in this case, but I don't think any penalties should be handed out. Maybe allow the teams in violation to make the necessary moves to get back into compliance?

Thoughts?

[emerald]

I'm confused...can you give an example?

For instance, I have KKolb(5/485) on IR. My understanding is that I have to count 5-1 or 4 years toward my active year limit of 38 and 50% of his 485 cb 2010 salary or 243 cb toward my 10,500 cap. Basically I save counting his body toward my 18 max on active squad, I save 1 year toward my 38 max on active and I save 242 cb toward my 10,500 cap on active squad by placing him on IR. Is that correct? If not, where did I misfigure...

[Burt the Butcher]

My leaning has always been, each owner is ultimately responsible for his own team management. The App and MFL site are just tools to help us out. If either is not correct, it is the owners responsibility to notify us that it is wrong. If we find an error, which results in the team being in violation, than the proper penalties should be meted out. While you do an outstanding job of keeping the App in good order, you cannot be expected to keep track of 12 teams in each league.

[Flaxwless]

Originally Posted by Burt the Butcher

My leaning has always been, each owner is ultimately responsible for his own team management. The App and MFL site are just tools to help us out. If either is not correct, it is the owners responsibility to notify us that it is wrong. If we find an error, which results in the team being in violation, than the proper penalties should be meted out. While you do an outstanding job of keeping the App in good order, you cannot be expected to keep track of 12 teams in each league.

Pat is talking about an actual formula error IN THE APP that everyone uses.

Unless you expect every team to calculate every single transaction by hand, then I think it's reasonable to allow teams to face no penalties if there's a formula error in the actual application we use for management.

Speaking from science definitions... the roster app is precise, but it is not accurate in regards to the IR formula. I can't fault the owner for using a tool that is not accurate.

[Liquid Swords]

Frank is correct. It is a formula error that is no one's fault. This error arose when I was rebuilding the app in order to reduce the file size.

What happened was the IR calculation was set for the field below (I48 and J48) the IR totals (I47 and J47). This caused IR calculations (years and salary) to calculate 0 for each. When I adjusted the calculations to use the proper fields, two minor infractions arose...one team 5cbs over cap and another 1 year over cap.

My suggestion would be to give each team currently in violation until game time tomorrow to make the proper adjustments. Thoughts?

[zdravko27]

If you penalize people now, will you expect owners to independently validate the Roster app every time they use it?

[Burt the Butcher]

I do not use the app to keep track of my team, so was not aware..I do actually calculate all my transactions out by hand for my team to verify my cap numbers...but I guess thats just me...

As far as each owner independently validating the App, as I stated before, these are tools to help you...you are still ultimately responsible for your own team management. If you want to use the App as your sole team management, then I would say that yes, you should verify that it works correctly.

But as this league is for fun, and since it seems most of you do use this tool, I have no issue with a one time pass on penalties...I back whatever ruling the commish feels is fair.

[Flaxwless]

Originally Posted by Burt the Butcher

I do not use the app to keep track of my team, so was not aware..I do actually calculate all my transactions out by hand for my team to verify my cap numbers...but I guess thats just me...

As far as each owner independently validating the App, as I stated before, these are tools to help you...you are still ultimately responsible for your own team management. If you want to use the App as your sole team management, then I would say that yes, you should verify that it works correctly.

But as this league is for fun, and since it seems most of you do use this tool, I have no issue with a one time pass on penalties...I back whatever ruling the commish feels is fair.

Crazy.

I mean the OFFICIAL Roster App is considered the definite source for team contract numbers/years (vs. the website) so it would make sense to "trust" the official roster app.

[zdravko27]

I am convinced by Burt's logic. I, too, thought the roster app was the bible of this league, but he accurately points out that it is not. So I just needed to know if I should run my own roster app in the future.

If you filed the wrong taxes with the IRS, do you think they would be sympathetic when you told them your Excel file was inaccurate?

[Flaxwless]

Originally Posted by zdravko27

I am convinced by Burt's logic. I, too, thought the roster app was the bible of this league, but he accurately points out that it is not. So I just needed to know if I should run my own roster app in the future.

If you filed the wrong taxes with the IRS, do you think they would be sympathetic when you told them your Excel file was inaccurate?

If the IRS gave you the wrong formula to use they better be.

The infractions were not user errors, but they systematic error.

[zdravko27]

But I think this is Burt's point - the league is not "giving" you the tool, you choose to use it and you are still on the hook, if the tool is wrong.

If we extend the IRS analogy, the "formula" here is not provided to you by the IRS to do your taxes. The "formula" is more similar to a third-party software, for which the IRS specifically says using it doesn't get you off the hook for following the rules.

Don't get me wrong - I don't want penalties. But the argument is rock solid, imho. So my solution would be simple: make the roster app the bible of the league. If the app says you are in compliance, you are in compliance. If an error is detected in the app and you are not in compliance anymore, then you are not in compliance as of the time of the error detection.

[Liquid Swords]

The roster app is the definitive source for tracking the league. The app I update and release IS the official roster app. The large majority of the league has always used it as the source for staying in compliance (Burt is an outlier).

However, the official roster app was flawed when I released the streamlined version. IMO, if anyone is to be penalized, it is me.

I believe making moves within 24 hrs of realization of the error is good enough. And both teams affected by it promptly made adjustments.

[Burt the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Flaxwless

If the IRS gave you the wrong formula to use they better be.

The infractions were not user errors, but they systematic error.

To use your analogy Frank, the formulas given to you are correct, they are in the league rules . The tool you use (the App) was flawed...that is your choice. Patrick puts a hell of a lot of time getting the App synched up, and the Webmaster of MFL put a lot of time into synching it up and keeping it updated. This just shows that one person should not be responsible for EVERYONEs roster. That is 'crazy' You are responsible for your own roster.

I don't have a problem with not doling out penalties for this error, but I cannot agree that if the App is wrong, you can be let off the hook for your roster being out of compliance. What about if Patrick enters a salary in wrong, say 200 rather than 300? Should you then not be held accountable for being over your cap then? That's bogus.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

I believe there's also an error with the IR designation calculation on the excel sheet. At least there is in the OPIHI version... I've had to keep track of my IR players in my head, in addition to the app figures.

Here's what I say (sorry, I've been out of the loop with spotty WiFi on my SF trip)...

Everyone is ultimately responsible for their figures... but it's also reasonable to assume that the "official" app from the league is correct.
SO... Everyone who's out of compliance has until Sunday night 11:59pm EST to get their roster set.

Just a reminder... Burt is right... we ALL are responsible for our own teams.

[Flaxwless]

Originally Posted by Burt the Butcher

To use your analogy Frank, the formulas given to you are correct, they are in the league rules . The tool you use (the App) was flawed...that is your choice. Patrick puts a hell of a lot of time getting the App synched up, and the Webmaster of MFL put a lot of time into synching it up and keeping it updated. This just shows that one person should not be responsible for EVERYONEs roster. That is 'crazy' You are responsible for your own roster.

I don't have a problem with not doling out penalties for this error, but I cannot agree that if the App is wrong, you can be let off the hook for your roster being out of compliance. What about if Patrick enters a salary in wrong, say 200 rather than 300? Should you then not be held accountable for being over your cap then? That's bogus.

If Patrick enters wrong salary that is a user/input error, that's completely different from a formula error. The input error is easily checked/verified by looking on the forums and each team should be held responsible to that. However, the calculation error would only show up if someone verifies the team cap outside of the app.

Burt you suggest that the "app" is just a tool, but the app is more than that. The official roster app is the end all be all, definitive source of the league. It's pretty much the backbone of the entire league. So as an owner it should be safe to assume that the app CALCULATES everything correctly. I mean how can we look to a document as the definitive source of team compliance, but still place responsibility on individual owners if there was a system-wide inaccuracy? It's either the app is correct or incorrect since it is the basis for all league info.

To me input errors, regardless of who inputs the data, should be punished but errors in the formula of the actual apps needs to be forgiven. However, this is all really a moot point since this is the first time this has come up in the league's existence.

[Burt the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Flaxwless

If Patrick enters wrong salary that is a user/input error, that's completely different from a formula error. The input error is easily checked/verified by looking on the forums and each team should be held responsible to that. However, the calculation error would only show up if someone verifies the team cap outside of the app.

Burt you suggest that the "app" is just a tool, but the app is more than that. The official roster app is the end all be all, definitive source of the league. It's pretty much the backbone of the entire league. So as an owner it should be safe to assume that the app CALCULATES everything correctly. I mean how can we look to a document as the definitive source of team compliance, but still place responsibility on individual owners if there was a system-wide inaccuracy? It's either the app is correct or incorrect since it is the basis for all league info.

To me input errors, regardless of who inputs the data, should be punished but errors in the formula of the actual apps needs to be forgiven. However, this is all really a moot point since this is the first time this has come up in the league's existence.

I agree the App should be the definitive source of the league. That is not my contention. My point is, it is not Patrick's responsibility alone to verify each team is correct, even though that is what he does, in addition to comparing it to MFL to make sure it is in sync. My point is, if the App is wrong, it should be up to each team to point out where the mistake is for their own team.

I do agree with your argument that since this is system wide error, it can be forgiven this time, and give each owner time to rectify. I just do not want this one time error to set precedence for input errors that seem to show you being under the cap, but in reality you are not. This is each teams responsibility to point this out when new App comes out.