Special Teams Scoring

[The Knights of Ni]

Maybe this has come up before and I ignored it (which is a real possiblity), but I noticed yesterday that TY Hilton was credited with a fumble on special teams for a bit. He was not credited with the TD at all on the punt return. Why would there be a deduction for a fumble on a special teams play but not a credit for the touchdown. The fumble was not a fumble so I got that point back but just thought if the fumble would have counted then the touchdown should count as well or you don't count anything that happens on special teams.

Just wanted to get some clarification.

[Burt the Butcher]

We only score Passing, Receiving and Rushing TD's. We also count Fumbles lost to opponent - I looked, and there was a Fumbles on Special Teams and a Fumbles on Offense, amount other types of Fumbles. My guess is what we are using is generic, and does not care how the fumble was lost.

I can email MFL to see if my guess is accurate if you would like?

[The Knights of Ni]

I don't know but just seems like if we count fumbles on special teams then we should count touchdowns as well.

[Liquid Swords]

See what MFL says. I would think the Special Teams fumbles would count against the D/ST stats and not individual. If it's individuals, then should we remove that setting?

[The Knights of Ni]

I agree.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

Originally Posted by Liquid Swords

See what MFL says. I would think the Special Teams fumbles would count against the D/ST stats and not individual. If it's individuals, then should we remove that setting?

We need to make THIS our default. Can someone do that? Or should I look into it?

[Burt the Butcher]

These are the FUMBLE settings we have available for all positions:
Fumbles
Fumbles on Offense
Fumbles on Special Teams
Fumbles on Defense
Fumbles Lost (to Opponent)
Fumbles Lost on Offense
Fumbles Lost on Special Teams
Fumbles Lost Defense

We currently only have "Fumbles Lost (to Opponent)" set for QB, RB, WR and TE...it is not set for PK or DEF.

So we can change this to whatever people want, but since this has been the settings since we started Frenzy as far as I know, shouldn't we put it to a vote before we change anything?

IF we change to Fumbles on Offense or Fumbles on Special Teams, it will count ALL fumbles, not just those FUMBLES recovered by opposing team..something to think about also...

[Burt the Butcher]

OH, we also have Fumbles Recovery (from Opponent) for DEF

[RManz]

I agree with Sword comment. If individulas on ST/D are not awared positive points (they go to the ST/D), then consistancy should apply on negative points and not apply to individuals.

[Liquid Swords]

Do we have a contact at MFL who can give us some clarification or how best to set it up for our needs?

[bigmash33]

Burt, from your options given above, if we went with Fumbles Lost on Offense, instead of Fumbles on Offense, wouldn't that include only the offensive fumbles that are lost to opponent? Would that be the direction that it seems everyone wants to go with?

[Burt the Butcher]

This is on MFL help:
Question:Why is a player being penalized for his fumble on a punt or kickoff return? Fumbles should only apply to individual players when they're on offense.

Answer: If your league uses the general "Fumbles" or the "Fumbles Lost (to Opponent)" rule in your scoring system for individual players, then it will include all fumbles by the player, no matter how or when they occurred. So in this case, even though the fumble happened on a punt or kickoff return, which many leagues consider to be a "special teams" play, it is still counted in the total for "Fumbles Lost" for the individual player.

If you don't want to count these fumbles that happen on non-offensive plays, then you should use the rule for "Fumbles on Offense" or "Fumbles Lost on Offense" instead. Please note that there have been quite a few fumbles on punt and kickoff returns that happen each week of the NFL season, so if you change this rule part way through the season, and you choose to apply it to the previous weeks, then it could change the scores for some players for prior weeks, too.

Pat, I can email MFL as commish if we want further clarification. I guess I would need to know exactly what we are asking. Are we looking to eliminate any points, negative or positive, from special teams?

[Burt the Butcher]

BTW, anyone can go to the Help Center from MFL to lookup answers to these questions...you don't have to be logged in as Commish to ask MFL a question....

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

I think we're merely trying to eliminate WRs (it's usually WRs) who play on special teams from being awarded or deducted points for WHATEVER they do on special teams. Special teams points should go to the DEFENSE, not the individual. Based on the "MFL Help" question you posted (and thank you for doing the grunt work on that), we need to use the "Fumbles lost on offense" category instead of "fumbles." Shall I do that? Or since you're already knee-deep into it, do you want to, Burt?

[bigmash33]

Being that we are within a week from the end of the 2012 regular season, shouldn't this be something done in 2013? It just seems like a better break point that doing it now. Just my 2 cents...

[Burt the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Royal Hawaiian Opihi

I think we're merely trying to eliminate WRs (it's usually WRs) who play on special teams from being awarded or deducted points for WHATEVER they do on special teams. Special teams points should go to the DEFENSE, not the individual. Based on the "MFL Help" question you posted (and thank you for doing the grunt work on that), we need to use the "Fumbles lost on offense" category instead of "fumbles." Shall I do that? Or since you're already knee-deep into it, do you want to, Burt?

I can do it...but like I posted above, its been this way since beginning of Frenzy, unless someone changed it. I would prefer we take a vote on it, as normal avenue to change rules. It's not like we have not had this happen before I am sure. But I am not the commish here - but would you want to set a precedence?

BTW, I am not sure I would be for dinging DEF for a WR/RB fumbling ball on return...after all at that point they are on offense....

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

Since the beginning, team defense has been both defense AND special teams. "Each team will have a maximum of eighteen (18) roster slots for their Active Roster. All slots need not be filled. These slots may be filled by players in any of the following positions: Quarterback (QB), Running Back or Fullback (RB), Wide Receiver (WR), Tight-End (TE), Place Kicker (K), and Defense/Special Team unit (D)--you get both units of any team on your roster." Having said that, looking the official scoring, there is NO mention of a penalty for fumbles on special teams... only on offense. So it's not a "rule change," Burt if the website has been set up wrong from the start. I don't know if this is the first instance of it for the year or not. But it might mean running all of the scoring again (unless you want to just leave it be & move ahead with the fixed settings). However, I also saw this: "The following TD scores will NOT count against a Defenses Points Against: Interception Returns, Fumble Recoveries, and Safeties." I need to confirm that MFL is set up this way.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

(sorry guys, none of my formatting is working right now. Didn't mean to dump the above post into one run-on paragraph!)

[Burt the Butcher]

I would interpret the above to include the Kicking team on special teams, not receiving team, since its designated as Special Team unit (D). It makes no sense to lump in the Receiving Special teams in with DEF, but who knows what Mike was thinking.

I would have no idea how to readjust the scores from beginning of season...with all the adds and drops, trying to resubmit lineups would be a royal pain that no man would walk away from without a noticeable limp.

But maybe once you change the scoring rules for one factor, you get the option to automatically re-run the scores without re-submitting lineups.....

Personally, I would prefer we wait until end of the season to do anything like this, but I'll go along with whatever you decide sir.

[Scorpions]

From what I understand, we dont use DEF/ST we only use DEF in frenzy. So #1, change the fumble to be Fumbles Lost on Offense, and we should not add Special team TDs, that mixes DEF and Special teams. Fixing the fumble removes special teams and def tie as well. I think all we should do here is fix the fumble setting, then it solves the issue.

[Burt the Butcher]

This is the current setup for DEF:

1) Number of Punt Return TD's
2) Number of Kickoff Return TD's
3) Number of Defensive Fumble Recovery TD's
4) Fumble Recoveries (From Opponent)
5) Number of Interception Return TD's
6) Interceptions Caught
7) Number of Blocked Field Goal TD's
8) Blocked Field Goals
9) Number of blocked punt TD's
10) Blocked Punts
11) Blocked Extra Points
12) Sacked a QB
13) Safties
14) Total Points Allowed
15) Total Net Yards allowed

[Scorpions]

Based on that, then i was wrong, we do use def/st, so then the fumble on st should count as well.

[Scorpions]

never mind.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

Yes, we use ST stats.
But we are also close to the end of the season, so we can leave it as is.
However, I don't feel a need to take a vote on this, as it's just an INCORRECT SETTING on the website. That's on us. We'll change it after the championship.
Fix the fumble setting to "all offense" (or whatever that particular verbage was) and we should be good.

[Burt the Butcher]

Sounds good to me...makes sense...

[Liquid Swords]

sounds good

[Scorpions]

sounds good

[The Knights of Ni]

works for me....