IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

I don't think that the rookies will be the same which is why I would advocate having a seperate rookie auction. If an owner chooses to make a rookie active right away that would be up to the owner but I would like to be able to try and develop so young guys without having to make the active members of my team.

I would think that by letting everyone have a shot at any player you eliminate the concerns about developing a draft order. This will also allow the market to set the prices (within reason since I would think there should a cap in place for this year at maybe 8-12% of what ever the active cap is).

Not sure how this could hurt things since it seems to address everyone's concerns while also adding a developmental component that is part of what makes dynasty leagues fun and interesting.

Because then we have to create another cap, conduct a 2nd auction, create another set of rules, rewite the Roster App...

All for 1 season of rookies. It's way too much work in an already complex league IMO.

[randilover]

Originally Posted by Preds

Because then we have to create another cap, conduct a 2nd auction, create another set of rules, rewite the Roster App...

All for 1 season of rookies. It's way too much work in an already complex league IMO.

Just to weigh in, I in no way whatsoever can tell you what I think will work as most of this goes over my head missing out on the Frenzy history.

I would like a rookie draft/auction, as that is really one of the cooler moments in any league, but besides nostalga, I have no reason to say I want a rookie draft.

Everyone seems to have valid points (it is a deep draft, but I would imagine it is a lot more work), but if this one goes to a vote, I will have to stand down.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Randilover.
I understand your respect. I am not a Frenzy-league player. So, I don't understand it all either. I do not want to overburden Mike (Preds) either.
However, do NOT discount your opinion. You are a owner in this league, which means your opinions count. Don't obstain. If you have questions, ask. I actually valued your last post. You admitted you weren't sure, but gave your reason for what you would like. That is all we are all doing.
I just don't want you to feel overwhelmed or antimidated by any of us, our antics, FF knowlege, who knows. We are all in the same boat -- we want an awesome league that is a blast to play! And that only happens if everyone participates in all aspects of the game.
ok. off my soap box now and back to my regularly scheduled job that is currenlty in progress....

[Burt the Butcher]

Originally Posted by randilover

Just to weigh in, I in no way whatsoever can tell you what I think will work as most of this goes over my head missing out on the Frenzy history.

I would like a rookie draft/auction, as that is really one of the cooler moments in any league, but besides nostalga, I have no reason to say I want a rookie draft.

Everyone seems to have valid points (it is a deep draft, but I would imagine it is a lot more work), but if this one goes to a vote, I will have to stand down.

I also like rookie drafts, and see the benefits of doing one each year. However, I also agree that to start us off, we should just hold an auction for rookies. And since the auction style really is freeform, I see no reason to seperate them out this year. It would really make it easier to keep track of everything, not only for the commish, but for us owners. That's my opinion at least.

[Nittany Dodgers]

The other option for the rookie draft is to base it largley on the Frenzy draft, flatten out the decline in salaries (since there are more rounds), and have everyone go in with the knowledge that the rookie salaries could very well be adjusted after the season. We did this one year in the Frenzy, when we determined the original rookie salaries were way out of whack (I don't remember who came up with that original scale, they must have been smoking something, whoever did the second one did a much better job). When we came up with the new one, we adjusted all of the original rookie salaries. I didn't do the work, but I don't think it was all that hard to do.

As for determining a fair order, I really think that if the first two rounds are serpentine, and the 3rd round on is the exact same order as the second round (ie, whoever gets the first pick, picks last in every other round), it balances out. Especially if everyone (read, unanimous) accepts this going in.

I really think it could work.

Edited to add, I could probably have a revised rookie salary scale by the end of the day, with two additional rounds.

[Burt the Butcher]

Sounds like a great idea, at least come up with something tangible. I think we could use one of the random pick generators out there to determine order (we used one in a couple startup leagues last year). Might make startup go a bit faster also.

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

The other option for the rookie draft is to base it largley on the Frenzy draft, flatten out the decline in salaries (since there are more rounds), and have everyone go in with the knowledge that the rookie salaries could very well be adjusted after the season. We did this one year in the Frenzy, when we determined the original rookie salaries were way out of whack (I don't remember who came up with that original scale, they must have been smoking something, whoever did the second one did a much better job). When we came up with the new one, we adjusted all of the original rookie salaries. I didn't do the work, but I don't think it was all that hard to do.

As for determining a fair order, I really think that if the first two rounds are serpentine, and the 3rd round on is the exact same order as the second round (ie, whoever gets the first pick, picks last in every other round), it balances out. Especially if everyone (read, unanimous) accepts this going in.

I really think it could work.

Edited to add, I could probably have a revised rookie salary scale by the end of the day, with two additional rounds.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I am a huge proponent of having a rookie draft/auction so anything that could be done to make this part of the 2005 plan would be great!!

[Mutts]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

I am a huge proponent of having a rookie draft/auction so anything that could be done to make this part of the 2005 plan would be great!!

I support a separate rookie draft as well. There is going to be a month or so of down time late summer as we wait for the start of the season. I think we could get it done.

[randilover]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Ramirez

Randilover.
I understand your respect. I am not a Frenzy-league player. So, I don't understand it all either. I do not want to overburden Mike (Preds) either.
However, do NOT discount your opinion. You are a owner in this league, which means your opinions count. Don't obstain. If you have questions, ask. I actually valued your last post. You admitted you weren't sure, but gave your reason for what you would like. That is all we are all doing.
I just don't want you to feel overwhelmed or antimidated by any of us, our antics, FF knowlege, who knows. We are all in the same boat -- we want an awesome league that is a blast to play! And that only happens if everyone participates in all aspects of the game.
ok. off my soap box now and back to my regularly scheduled job that is currenlty in progress....

Thanks for the encouragement. Not overwhelmed or intimidated (yet), just slightly lost. I have printed out the rules for Frenzy though:read, so I am figuring to catch up as we go along...

Well, I'd like a auction, and I will have to trust any adjustments you fellas put together. As for order, a random generator sounds good. You can't squew something like that, so whoever winds up on the bottom will have no one to blame except for Divine providence. Plus adding the serpentine to it and then having it switch like was discussed sounds great to me. With 12 teams, having a draft this deep in talent sounds like it will work.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

As for determining a fair order, I really think that if the first two rounds are serpentine, and the 3rd round on is the exact same order as the second round (ie, whoever gets the first pick, picks last in every other round), it balances out. Especially if everyone (read, unanimous) accepts this going in.

I really think it could work.

Edited to add, I could probably have a revised rookie salary scale by the end of the day, with two additional rounds.

Brian- not to hold your feet to the fire but did you have any luck with this? Also, are we sure that pick 1.1 is that valuable? If everyone else agrees then I am fine with it but I might suggest that rounds 1, 4, 6 have the same order and than 2, 3 and 5 be the inverse of round 1. Just a thought since I am not sure quite how to value 72 picks over 6 rounds. Thanks!

[Preds]

I am going to continue my stance of NOT being in favor of a rookie draft with no records to base a draft order on, and just a guesstimate to base salaries on.

I think in year 2 we'll be rolling things back and whatnot like we had to in the Frenzy the 1st couple years. I guess if everyone knows to expect that going in...

As for a draft order, Matt, if you don't think the 1.1 (in any draft) has more value than you're proposing, than I'll be the 1st in line to take the 1.1.

Brian's idea at a MINIMUM has to be considered (I'd still want the 1.1 in this setup)

Rd 1 Rd 2 Rd 3 Rd 4 Rd 5 Rd 6
1 12 12 12 12 12
2 11 11 11 11 11
3 10 10 10 10 10
4 9 9 9 9 9
5 8 8 8 8 8
6 7 7 7 7 7
7 6 6 6 6 6
8 5 5 5 5 5
9 4 4 4 4 4
10 3 3 3 3 3
11 2 2 2 2 2
12 1 1 1 1 1

[Nittany Dodgers]

I've attached my proposal as a file. I based DL salaries like WRs, LBs like quarterbacks, and DBs a little higher than TEs. This is just a starting point and of course open for debate.

How would you fairly determine who gets the first pick? Whoever ends up with one of the first 3 picks will be looking pretty good.

I am with Preds on this one. Let's just wait till next year.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

The other option for the rookie draft is to base it largley on the Frenzy draft, flatten out the decline in salaries (since there are more rounds), and have everyone go in with the knowledge that the rookie salaries could very well be adjusted after the season. We did this one year in the Frenzy, when we determined the original rookie salaries were way out of whack (I don't remember who came up with that original scale, they must have been smoking something, whoever did the second one did a much better job). When we came up with the new one, we adjusted all of the original rookie salaries. I didn't do the work, but I don't think it was all that hard to do.

As for determining a fair order, I really think that if the first two rounds are serpentine, and the 3rd round on is the exact same order as the second round (ie, whoever gets the first pick, picks last in every other round), it balances out. Especially if everyone (read, unanimous) accepts this going in.

I really think it could work.

Edited to add, I could probably have a revised rookie salary scale by the end of the day, with two additional rounds.

show us what you got when you get some numbers. Like Freedom stated, having something actually written is a lot different than just talking about it.

I think if Preds sees the numbers, he might be swayed. I would also like to see the numbers. I would prefer draft, but if it's too much work, then I'm fine with putting rookies with everyone else this year in the auction.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

I've attached my proposal as a file. I based DL salaries like WRs, LBs like quarterbacks, and DBs a little higher than TEs. This is just a starting point and of course open for debate.

OK, then. that's what I get for replying before I read to the bottom. Dodgers, I have a comment. DBs score more than DL (so you should switch their salaries to have DBs tagged with WR and DL tagged w/ TE).

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I've attached my proposal as a file. I based DL salaries like WRs, LBs like quarterbacks, and DBs a little higher than TEs. This is just a starting point and of course open for debate.

These look good to me. Thanks, Brian!

How would you fairly determine who gets the first pick? Whoever ends up with one of the first 3 picks will be looking pretty good.

I am with Preds on this one. Let's just wait till next year.

I would be fine with a random pick generation for this year (using records going forward) and would prefer that this be part of this years plan.

As for a draft order, Matt, if you don't think the 1.1 (in any draft) has more value than your proposing, than I'll be the 1st in line to take the 1.1.

I stand corrected, upon further review pick 1.1 does hold enough value that making the owner of that pick, pick last in all following rounds makes sense. Sorry about that!!

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

How would you fairly determine who gets the first pick? Whoever ends up with one of the first 3 picks will be looking pretty good.

I am with Preds on this one. Let's just wait till next year.

Not always. depends on what their goal is. If someone wants to RB (as most do, then fine). However, WR and QBs are more of 'projects' and needing the Taxi more than a RB who generally steps up faster. This is a very deep draft at most positions. I think it would be fine to have a draft this year, since no one really gets short end. There is no good way to do this otherwise. If you put it off, you have to create everything anyway. the only thing is the draft order will be determined...I think random generator is fair. And besides, it's not like our lives or money depend on this. It's for fun! I'll take 1.12. I don't care. I'm doing this because it's fun. Winning is a nice bonus (especially when you beat Preds:box ).

[Philadelphia Freedom]

And besides, it's not like our lives or money depend on this. It's for fun! I'll take 1.12. I don't care.

Dude, stop writing stuff like that. I keep hearing Bette Midler in my head, "You are the winds beneath my wings."

Actually, that is very magnamous of you but I think if we all agree up front then the random idea works for me.

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Ramirez

OK, then. that's what I get for replying before I read to the bottom. Dodgers, I have a comment. DBs score more than DL (so you should switch their salaries to have DBs tagged with WR and DL tagged w/ TE).

I knew this was detailed somewhere, but I couldn't find the post, and since my head is still spinning from the defensive scoring, I just went on memory. Here's the updated version.

Also, as to the order, and fairness, I don't know there is a way to set a "fair" order. My vote would go to a random pick generator. Also, the three #1 picks in the Frenzy have been William Green, Charles Rogers, and Kevin Jones. While Jones looks to turn out to be a decent player, whoever ends up with the #1 isn't going to get an automatic stud with the pick. Plus, with the addition of the defensive players, the later rounds picks are more valuable, and the non-serpentive aspect after the second will be more important. Also, if we all agree that even though it is unfair, we agree to take our chances with a random pick generator, we all have the same shot, and there would be nothing to complain about.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Thanks for clarifying this Brian and I agree if everyone knows the numbers going in then everyone should be happy.

BTW, looking at most mock drafts it looks like everyone should be able to get an NFL first rounder (since the only positions not being pick in this format would be OL) with probably close to their first 2 picks.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

I've attached my proposal as a file. I based DL salaries like WRs, LBs like quarterbacks, and DBs a little higher than TEs. This is just a starting point and of course open for debate.

I think you have the valuation of the positions mixed up Brian. IMO, DL's should be more like TE's not WR's.

The LB's should be along the WR scale, and the DB's should be justa tad below the WR scale (at least in terms of production).

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Preds

I think you have the valuation of the positions mixed up Brian. IMO, DL's should be more like TE's not WR's.

The LB's should be along the WR scale, and the DB's should be justa tad below the WR scale (at least in terms of production).

I did correct the reversal I had with DLs and CBs.

How about starting points of 350 for LBs, 300 for CBs, and 200 for DLs? I'm not in favor of having DLs starting all the way down at 150, since even at 5cb drop per draft slot, a 1.11 pick used on a DL is already at the 100 cb minimum.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

I knew this was detailed somewhere, but I couldn't find the post, and since my head is still spinning from the defensive scoring, I just went on memory. Here's the updated version.

Also, as to the order, and fairness, I don't know there is a way to set a "fair" order. My vote would go to a random pick generator. Also, the three #1 picks in the Frenzy have been William Green, Charles Rogers, and Kevin Jones. While Jones looks to turn out to be a decent player, whoever ends up with the #1 isn't going to get an automatic stud with the pick. Plus, with the addition of the defensive players, the later rounds picks are more valuable, and the non-serpentive aspect after the second will be more important. Also, if we all agree that even though it is unfair, we agree to take our chances with a random pick generator, we all have the same shot, and there would be nothing to complain about.

I think the TE scale should regress slower (maybe every 2 picks), probably the same with K's and DL

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

I did correct the reversal I had with DLs and CBs.

How about starting points of 350 for LBs, 300 for CBs, and 200 for DLs? I'm not in favor of having DLs starting all the way down at 150, since even at 5cb drop per draft slot, a 1.11 pick used on a DL is already at the 100 cb minimum.

Y, I see that now, I posted before I saw the fix. The LB's being slightly above the WR's is OK, with the DB's on par with the WR's.

See my comments in the previous post though on revising the sliding scale for TE's, K's, and DL.

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Preds

See my comments in the previous post though on revising the sliding scale for TE's, K's, and DL.

I like that idea.

[Burt the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

I knew this was detailed somewhere, but I couldn't find the post, and since my head is still spinning from the defensive scoring, I just went on memory. Here's the updated version.

Also, as to the order, and fairness, I don't know there is a way to set a "fair" order. My vote would go to a random pick generator. Also, the three #1 picks in the Frenzy have been William Green, Charles Rogers, and Kevin Jones. While Jones looks to turn out to be a decent player, whoever ends up with the #1 isn't going to get an automatic stud with the pick. Plus, with the addition of the defensive players, the later rounds picks are more valuable, and the non-serpentive aspect after the second will be more important. Also, if we all agree that even though it is unfair, we agree to take our chances with a random pick generator, we all have the same shot, and there would be nothing to complain about.

This looks much better, as I agreed with Rami and Preds that DL's should be below both LB and DB. This looks much more equitable.

Sounds like we are mixed here in preference, so let's put it to a vote. Random generated order draft or auction.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Dude, stop writing stuff like that. I keep hearing Bette Midler in my head, "You are the winds beneath my wings."

Actually, that is very magnamous of you but I think if we all agree up front then the random idea works for me.

Don't say stuff like that...I nearly lost my pop. I didn't say it to gag anyone. I said because I really don't care. I just want to play

[The Immortal Ramirez]

points taken. There's been a lot of debate. let's see where people stand.

On this vote, even if you don't have a strong opinion either way, I'd like you to vote which way you lean towards. If keeping Rooks separate wins, then we'll need another vote on auction or draft...I'll worry about that then. If not, we don't have to worry about this anymore because everyone will all be in the same auction.

[Preds]

6 votes in and we have a 50/50 deadlock... why am I not surprised lol!

[randilover]

I am liking having the draft and have voted accordingly. The generator will pick order and as Freedom mentioned above, most of us will be all but guaranteed 2 of the first rounders (if it falls that way). Including IDP's really does change the course of the draft. Although they may score less, landing a valuable rookie stud IDP could anchor a defense for years to come.

Also, like Rami, I'd find even the 12th pick valuable (seeing you'd get #13 as well), and as for the salary/cap/bonus issue, putting them in line with where the predictive scoring had them should cover the issues, which, if need be, can be modified next year, we all should plan on that potentially being the case.