Close game in question?

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Scoring question: According to the league rules (http://frenzy.predsff.com/FeedingFre...s.html#Scoring) it looks like a defensive team should be credited with 3 points for ANY blocked kick. Not sure how this is tracked but it does not seem to have happened with the Saints in my game against Jake.

According to NFL.com's play-by-play of the NO/Oak game:

S.Lechler punts 22 yards to NO 44, Center-A.Treu, downed by OAK-D.Terrell. Kick partially blocked by #40 M. Mitchell

Normally, I would not even have known about this but our local Fox coverage converted to this game at the end of the fourth quarter and they alluded to the defensive TD and also the blocked punt. Since I am now down (without credit for the block) by .40 (I think this may be the closest game I have had in this league) I figured it was worth mentioning.

Thanks!

[Preds]

Matt, FFLM and the NFL (I believe) define a blocked punt as a kick that doesn't cross the line of scrimmage.

A partially blocked kick is not the same thing.

FFLM hasn't scored this as a block because the ball advanced down the field 22 yards past the line of scrimmage.

I think your reaching here... had the kick not advanced past the line of scrimmage I would have seen your case, but the kick did go some distance.

I don't think we can call a partially blocked kick the same as a blocked kick.

Trust me too Matt, I was actually pulling for you to win and make the East that much stronger (honest).

EDITED TO ADD

Here's the closest I can find in the NFL rulebook regarding a blocked kick http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/kicksfromscrimmage

4. Any punt that is blocked and does not cross the line of scrimmage can be recovered and advanced by either team. However, if offensive team recovers it must make the yardage necessary for its first down to retain possession if punt was on fourth down.

This IMO supports the idea that a punt is not fully blocked unless the kick crosses the line of scrimmage.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Really, there is a distinction? In my mind a kick that is noted as being blocked (both on the broadcast of the game and in the NFL.com play-by-play notes) is blocked. I don't see this as a reach (in any way shape or form) since in my mind there is nothing to reach for. Our rules say ANY blocked kick and there is no distinction to where the ball lands or how far it travels. The kick was blocked and the line of scrimmage being broken does not seem to be part of the equation.

Also, not sure what you mean by the NFL defintion since it was their play by play that noted that it was partially blocked. For the record, I assume that a partially blocked kick is one where the punter is still credited with some yardage but since our rules say any blocked kick I am not sure why the partially makes any difference.

Like I said, other than the fact that the baby was fussing and I ended up watching the bonus coverage I would not even have known about this. However, the announcers said it was a blocked punt so I checked the play-by-play when I did not see it credited.

To me this should be 3 more defensive points based on the way our rules are written.

Mike: Just noticed your edit:

Any punt that is blocked and does not cross the line of scrimmage can be recovered and advanced by either team. However, if offensive team recovers it must make the yardage necessary for its first down to retain possession if punt was on fourth down.

This supports that there are other types of blocks (ie. partial blocks) that do pass the line of scrimmage. What I mean is that there should be another part of this: Any punt that is blocked and does cross the line of scrimmage...

Also, to you point about the distance the punt travels why would the NFL.com site bother to note it was blocked if it did not matter. What I mean is why not just list it like a “shank” that traveled 22 yards?

[Preds]

Matt,

I wrote the scoring system, and I can tell you the intent of the blocked kick rule was for a completely blocked kick, not a partial block.

The punter still got the ball off, but it was essentially tipped and thus traveled only 22 yards.

I just can't support a "partial block" as being equivelent to a "block"... otherwise why wouldn't they just call it a BLOCKED kick?

Further, FFLM scoring is pretty accurate, and if Elias or wherever they get their stats from had scored the kick as a block FFLM would have reflected it.

[Nittany Dodgers]

Just going on record as agreed with Mike here. Theoretically, a partially blocked field goal could still go through the uprights (it happens occasionally). No way should the defense get points for that.

[Liquid Swords]

I too agree with Mike on this one. It's only a blocked kick if it doesn't make it back to the line of scrimmage.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

This is probably a bad week for this to have happened since a game literally hangs in the balance. To your point:

I just can't support a "partial block" as being equivelent to a "block"... otherwise why wouldn't they just call it a BLOCKED kick?

I guess we are looking at the same coin but I am seeing a different side. If the kicked was not blocked why would they bother to note that it was partially blocked.

Not to make to big a deal about this but it seems to me that a kick listed as partially blocked is still blocked (by the way our rules are written concerning ANY blocked kick).

I appreciate your efforts and thoughts here but I still think that the way our rules are written this should add three points to the Saints defensive total.

[Nittany Dodgers]

Matt, I think a good way to look at it is with fumbles. A fumble is a fumble regardless, but we only lose points for a fumble lost.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Matt, I think a good way to look at it is with fumbles. A fumble is a fumble regardless, but we only lose points for a fumble lost.

Brian I agree with you and again, I think we are seeing a different side of same coin. While the rules do not specifically state what type of fumble. We all know it means a fumble lost. However, the rules do specifically state ANY blocked kick. Thus a partially blocked kick is a blocked kick and worth 3 points.

You do bring up a good point that both of these issues should probably be tightened up. However, as the rules currently are written ANY blocked kick indicates that a qualifier (partially) is acceptable to get those three points.

[Mutts]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

This is probably a bad week for this to have happened since a game literally hangs in the balance. To your point:



I guess we are looking at the same coin but I am seeing a different side. If the kicked was not blocked why would they bother to note that it was partially blocked.

Not to make to big a deal about this but it seems to me that a kick listed as partially blocked is still blocked (by the way our rules are written concerning ANY blocked kick).

I appreciate your efforts and thoughts here but I still think that the way our rules are written this should add three points to the Saints defensive total.

Close game Freedom! I feel your pain here, but I agree with everyone else on this. (If you can believe I'm unbiased... I of course will recuse myself from any final ruling.) Blocked kicks are awarded 3 pts because they are essentially the equivalent of a turnover. That is the intent of the scoring rule. There are balls kicked in the NFL that travel 40 yards (or 22), even after an opposing player happens to get a finger on the ball. Its hard for me to accept that such a play should be rewarded as a turnover.

[Preds]

FYI, I posted a question on the FFLM support boards... you can follow the discussion here:

http://sidelineleagues.com/forums/in...showtopic=5396

The 1st response totally supported my opinion, as does FFLM/MFL's official scoring... here's their take on blocked kicks:

http://www.myfantasyleague.com/statistics_lifecycle.htm

I'd like to note that I didn't bold the text in the quote above, it already appeared that way, and it totally supports my opinion on what a block kick is and isn't.

[Mutts]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Brian I agree with you and again, I think we are seeing a different side of same coin. While the rules do not specifically state what type of fumble. We all know it means a fumble lost. However, the rules do specifically state ANY blocked kick. Thus a partially blocked kick is a blocked kick and worth 3 points.

You do bring up a good point that both of these issues should probably be tightened up. However, as the rules currently are written ANY blocked kick indicates that a qualifier (partially) is acceptable to get those three points.

As far as the semantics go... I think the NFL clearly sees a "blocked kick" and a "partially blocked kick" as two completely different things. We award points for "blocked kicks". The "ANY" in our rules refers to the type of kick: punt, field goal, extra point.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Another common question we get is "The NFL team XXX blocked a kick this week - why aren't you reporting it as a blocked kick?" The NFL characterizes "blocked" kicks differently from "deflected" kicks - in short, a kick is only officially reported as "blocked" if it does not pass the line of scrimmage. If the ball does pass the line of scrimmage, it is considered a "deflected" kick, and therefore not reported by the NFL (or us) as a blocked kick.

Thanks for your work on this Mike.

Again, it looks like we are seeing the same coin (this sucker is getting around) but different sides. Here the issue seems to be that we have a rule written as ANY blocked kick (covering partial or full blocks not the type of kick- punt, field goal or Xtra Pt) . However, FFLM cannot (or does not have) the ability to correctly apply this. If our rules need to be improved that is fine but as they are written (and posted on the league's website) a partially blocked kick is worth 3 points.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Thanks for your work on this Mike.

Again, it looks like we are seeing the same coin (this sucker is getting around) but different sides. Here the issue seems to be that we have a rule written as ANY blocked kick (covering partial or full blocks not the type of kick- punt, field goal or Xtra Pt) . However, FFLM cannot (or does not have) the ability to correctly apply this. If our rules need to be improved that is fine but as they are written (and posted on the league's website) a partially blocked kick is worth 3 points.

I totally disagree with you Matt (sorry). As Jake stated earlier, the "ANY" verbiage in front of "Blocked Kick" is a direct reference to the various types of blocked kicks (i.e. Punt, FG, XP), not how the kick is blocked.

I just can't support you on this one... it is not the intent of the rule, nor how myself, the NFL, or FFLM would score it.

Additionally, so far nobody else in the league (or outside of it) has agreed with you either. I'd truly love to see you get the win (yes I'd rather see you 4-3 than 3-4)... but I just can't support twisting the verbiage of a rule to support your cause.

It's a tough loss to take, but it's a loss nonetheless... don't get bitter over losing a close one... I myself have learned from my mistakes in my bowl loss to Jersey a couple years back... I've tried having fun win or lose since then, and congratulate the foes that beat me, no matter how close or far apart the score (I've actually matured some ;)).

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Additionally, so far nobody else in the league (or outside of it) has agred with you either. I'd truly love to see you get the win (yes I'd rather see you 4-3 than 3-4)... but I just can't support twisting the verbiage of a rule to support your cause.

Mike I am fine with you (or anyone else) disagreeing with me. However, I do take some offense at my supposed twisting the wording to support my cause.

I am actually just saying to play it like it is stated in the rules and not adding or subtracting anything. The wording says ANY (in big capital letters) blocked kick. We have an instance where there is a partially blocked punt and there are no points being awarded.

Again this is a bad week for this to happen as it highlights an apparent flaw in our langauge (or application) in a game where 3 points makes a big difference.

To summarize (since this getting to be a long thread):

1. Feeding Frenzy rules (http://frenzy.predsff.com/FeedingFr...es.html#Scoring) state that ANY blocked kick is worth 3 points to the defense/special teams.
2. The NFL.com's play-by-play (and the Fox broadcast coverage) notes that punt was partially blocked in the second quarter of the Saints/Raiders game.
3. No points were awarded though based on our rules this partial block qualifies as a blocked kick.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Mike I am fine with you (or anyone else) disagreeing with me. However, I do take some offense at my supposed twisting the wording to support my cause.

I am actually just saying to play it like it is stated in the rules and not adding or subtracting anything. The wording says ANY (in big capital letters) blocked kick. We have an instance where there is a partially blocked punt and there are no points being awarded.

Again this is a bad week for this to happen as it highlights an apparent flaw in our langauge (or application) in a game where 3 points makes a big difference.

To summarize (since this getting to be a long thread):

1. Feeding Frenzy rules (http://frenzy.predsff.com/FeedingFr...es.html#Scoring) state that ANY blocked kick is worth 3 points to the defense/special teams.
2. The NFL.com's play-by-play (and the Fox broadcast coverage) notes that punt was partially blocked in the second quarter of the Saints/Raiders game.
3. No points were awarded though based on our rules this partial block qualifies as a blocked kick.

Matt,

I think you're trying to twist the meaning of the word ANY to support your cause, and I just don't see it that way.

It's clear IMO that a blocked kick is a kick that doesn't cross the line of scrimmage... FFLM handles it that way, and apparently the NFL reports it that way as well.

A Partial Block that didn't prevent the ball from advancing past the line of scrimmage is simple not equivelant to a blocked kick that does. Partially Blocked in this suituation is equivelent to tipped IMO, and tipped kicks are not scored as blocked.

I just can't support your case here. You're fighting semantics on the word any, which was a shorthand way to refer to the several variations of kicks (Punt, FG, XP, Drop Kick, etc). The word any does not infer "partially blocked." Sorry man, I just can't see it that way, especially since I created the scoring system and know the intent behind the wording. Can it be cleaned up to be more specific, of course... we find nuances like this every year... and we will clean it up in the off-season, but I can't support the case your making now.

Sorry.

[Nittany Dodgers]

I am begining to see why lawyers capitalize defined terms in contracts, etc. If we were a bunch of lawyers, this is how the rule book should read:

Defined terms

Blocked Kick: A punt, field goal, or extra point, that is blocked by the oposing team resulting in the ball not reaching the line of scrimmage.

Scoring Section:

ANY Blocked Kick = 3 points

The problem here is that Matt is technically correct in that the rules could be read to presume that ANY blocked kick refers to any type of block of akick and not any type of kick blocked.

However, if we were a bunch of judges ruling on the contract, and the language left itself open to multiple interpretations, as our rule now does, we would have to consider the intent of the rule, not only the letter of the rule. The intent is clear that it must be a fully blocked kick, as defined by the NFL official statistics as a blocked kick.

End of lawyer impersonation.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

I am begining to see why lawyers capitalize defined terms in contracts, etc. If we were a bunch of lawyers, this is how the rule book should read:

Defined terms

Blocked Kick: A punt, field goal, or extra point, that is blocked by the oposing team resulting in the ball not reaching the line of scrimmage.

Scoring Section:

ANY Blocked Kick = 3 points

The problem here is that Matt is technically correct in that the rules could be read to presume that ANY blocked kick refers to any type of block of akick and not any type of kick blocked.

However, if we were a bunch of judges ruling on the contract, and the language left itself open to multiple interpretations, as our rule now does, we would have to consider the intent of the rule, not only the letter of the rule. The intent is clear that it must be a fully blocked kick, as defined by the NFL official statistics as a blocked kick.

End of lawyer impersonation.

BINGO... well said Brian.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Partially Blocked in this suituation is equivelent to tipped IMO, and tipped kicks are not scored as blocked.

Again, if it was a tipped kick then the play-by-play should say a tipped kick and the broadcaster would not have said it was blocked punt. By saying a partially blocked kick it qualifies as part of our ANY description.

I am not trying to be a jerk (or a lawyer though in some case those two things are synomous) but I went to bed (when I checked the site around 7:30 no scores were posted) thinking that I had a blocked kick worth 3 points based on the way our rules were written and what I heard on the broadcast of the game. I did not know that it could/should decide the winner of the game but either way our rules indicate that a blocked kick is worth 3 points.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Again, if it was a tipped kick then the play-by-play should say a tipped kick and the broadcaster would not have said it was blocked punt. By saying a partially blocked kick it qualifies as part of our ANY description.

I am not trying to be a jerk (or a lawyer though in some case those two things are synomous) but I went to bed (when I checked the site around 7:30 no scores were posted) thinking that I had a blocked kick worth 3 points based on the way our rules were written and what I heard on the broadcast of the game. I did not know that it could/should decide the winner of the game but either way our rules indicate that a blocked kick is worth 3 points.

Matt,

I don't know where you want to go with this, but I've already voted you down, as has Brian who's also on the rules committee. The 3rd member is Jake, and I could seek a replacement for a vote if you'd like, but there is already a majority opinion against your interpretation.

I think we can clean this language up for next year to be more specific, but I can't support giving you the 3 points based on your interpretation of the wording in question. It simply was not the intent or the spirit of the rule that a partially blocked kick would be equivelant to a blocked kick. The intent of the word ANY was for the type of kick, not the type of block.

I also want to add, that in fairness to your cause I've gone out of my way to research the issue for you, (checking the NFL rulebook, posting on FFLM's support board, researching the responses there, etc.) it's not like I killed your request off hand... there's just no support that a partially blocked kick is equivelant to a blocked kick. A blocked kick essentially means the ball did not advance past the line of scrimmage, whereas partially blocked appearantly references a kick that does. I think your looking at the symantics of broadcasters who can look at the same call and have 1 guy calls it a tip and another call it a block, but a true block prevents the advancement of the ball. Further, as stated by FFLM/MFL, the NFL does not report a partially blocked kick as a block.

[Flaxwless]

Yah I gotta agree with everyone else, Matt.

Techinically you'd be right, but pretty sure the intent of the rule is for fully blocked kicks.

It's though, but that's the game for ya.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Fair enough. However, in this case I must admit I don’t see myself as the interpreter. The rules say something that clearly (now) was not your (or the leagues’) intent.

The interpretation seems to be coming from wanting to do something different than what is stated will happen. Actually this seems to be the textbook definition of interpretation: an explanation of something that is not immediately obvious (http://dict.die.net/interpretation/).

When I heard that there was blocked punt and saw that the play-by-play log showed a blocked punt it was obvious to me that three points should be awarded to the Saints. Your (and everyone else’s) understanding of how our rule was to be applied is the interpretation to me.

BTW, I am not mad (heck I am used to losing and it usually is not all that close) I just don’t see why we are not following the rules as they are written.

[Flaxwless]

Well like everything in this league we're all playing and learning as we go. So possibly for the next coulpe of years or even for however long this league lasts (forever)there will be issues every year until we get them kinks ironed out.

What makes this league great though is owners understanding and willing to often take one for the betterment of the league. It sucks that a game has to be decided by this, but it seems as if change will be made next off-season, so hopefully that can be a cause hapiness. That you've changed the world for the better. Knowing that NO ONE will ever be screwed by a poorly written rule regarding partially blocked kicks, kicks that travel in the air but hit the scoreboard and fall behind the line of scrimmage, and kicks that vanish into a wormhole.

It's because of you Matt that owners everywhere will no longer fear the day, when a blocked kick can cost them the game! You truly are a man of Freedom!

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Fair enough. However, in this case I must admit I don’t see myself as the interpreter. The rules say something that clearly (now) was not your (or the leagues’) intent.

The interpretation seems to be coming from wanting to do something different than what is stated will happen. Actually this seems to be the textbook definition of interpretation: an explanation of something that is not immediately obvious (http://dict.die.net/interpretation/).

When I heard that there was blocked punt and saw that the play-by-play log showed a blocked punt it was obvious to me that three points should be awarded to the Saints. Your (and everyone else’s) understanding of how our rule was to be applied is the interpretation to me.

BTW, I am not mad (heck I am used to losing and it usually is not all that close) I just don’t see why we are not following the rules as they are written.

I disagree, we ARE following the rules as they are written.

Where in the rules does it state "partially" blocked kicks = 3 points?

It says ANY Blocked kicks, and IMO the interpretation comes in as to what the ANY is referring to, and I think it's farily obvious that it's in reference to the different types of kicks, not different type of blocks (I mean really, how often do you hear differnet types of blocks... in no way is that what the word ANY was referring to).

Anyhow, when a rules issue comes up, it is the job of the rules committee to interpret any rule in quesiotn, and the committee is 100% behind the definition of the word "ANY" in this case as referring to the type of kick and not the type of block.

The debate ends there. We are not IMO circumventing the rules in any way.

We'll be sure to clarify the language for the 2005 season, but as you know Matt, it is nearly impossible to forsee every situation and definition, which is why we have a rules committee. As it is, our rules are among the more complex, and defined, set of rules I've seen. And each season loopholes or inaccuracies are closed or cleaned up.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I disagree, we ARE following the rules as they are written.

Where in the rules does it state "partially" blocked kicks = 3 points?

I guess this is the crux of the issue. We clearly say that ANY blocked kick counts. There is no mention of adjectives (or is it adverbs?) being relevant to the discussion. Whether the kick is partially blocked does not matter as the point is that it was blocked. The interpretation is that there is a qualifier being added, that says that partially blocked kicks do not count.

What makes this league great though is owners understanding and willing to often take one for the betterment of the league. It sucks that a game has to be decided by this, but it seems as if change will be made next off-season, so hopefully that can be a cause hapiness. That you've changed the world for the better. Knowing that NO ONE will ever be screwed by a poorly written rule regarding partially blocked kicks, kicks that travel in the air but hit the scoreboard and fall behind the line of scrimmage, and kicks that vanish into a wormhole.

It's because of you Matt that owners everywhere will no longer fear the day, when a blocked kick can cost them the game! You truly are a man of Freedom!

That is some good stuff!! Thanks for the laugh Frank. Your right, knowing that NO ONE will ever again be screwed by a poorly written rule regarding blocked kicks almost makes this loss more special than the other 30 (was 40 already) or so that I have endured.

[Preds]

BTW, the creator of the FFLM software just posted this answer to my query on their board:

http://sidelineleagues.com/forums/in...=0&#entry23084

Mike Hall clearly states here that an official block was not recorded in the stats (by their source), thus there is no credit for a block. Again, partially blocked just does not equal blocked.

Hey Matt, maybe this will give your Freedom yet another reason to hate my Predators and get the blood boiling in our upcoming Eastern Division battles... you're due to beat me this year IMO.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Good enough. As for hating you (or your team) why would I do that? Other than the fact that the Predators (and just about everyone else in the league) have dominated the Freedom for 3 going on 4 years.

In reality, I am not mad at anyone (other than myself for sitting Gabriel for Terrell). I would however, like to win all my game the rest of the way but that is not likely to happen. Heck, I would be happy if I could at least make it 7-7 when all is said and done.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Good enough. As for hating you (or your team) why would I do that? Other than the fact that the Predators (and just about everyone else in the league) have dominated the Freedom for 3 going on 4 years.

In reality, I am not mad at anyone (other than myself for sitting Gabriel for Terrell). I would however, like to win all my game the rest of the way but that is not likely to happen. Heck, I would be happy if I could at least make it 7-7 when all is said and done.

Matt,

I've stated all along that I felt your team was much better than in years past... I think it'll surprise even you. Don't count yourself out of the division, I certainly haven't counted your Freedom out... 4 key division games still remain, and you're holding your own quite well outside the division.

[Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers]

All the good stuff takes place before I log on. Anyway, I gotta go with the majority on this one. Partial block =! block. The word ANY before the "blocked kick" leaves our rule vague but it seems it will be cleaned up. Sorry Matt. I wish I had a witty reply to make you feel better but I got stomped this week by Priest Holmes in 2 of my leagues.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

Originally Posted by Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers

All the good stuff takes place before I log on.

Tell me about it... it's 8:30am here in the islands... and it's already mid-afternoon on the East Coast. Looks like things have been ironed out. The definitive "a blocked kick was not recorded" statement made everything clear. If the NFL calls it a blocked kick, then we need to honor that. If not, then it doesn't matter what a local TV station or newspaper reports.

Now for future years, it would probably be good to put in "partial block" language... but we can't go wrong if we use the official NFL determination.