Players changing positions

[Liquid Swords]

So I was interested in finding out how MFL handles position changes for players like Jadeveon Clowney (LB to DL) and more recently Ty Montgomery (WR to RB). Here's how MFL addresses this question:

Can Ty Montgomery be listed as a RB instead of a WR?

Answer: Yes, the commissioner can use the For Commissioners > Setup > Players and Rosters > Change Player Position screen to change the position for any player as needed or desired for your league. After a player position is changed, the player will only receive fantasy points based on the scoring rules defined for his new position.

For some background on the player positions, there isn't any way to designate a player at a "dual position", so each player is listed within MFL at a single position. We use the Rotoworld.com Depth Charts as our official source for all player positions at the beginning of the season. Then after the season starts, we generally don't make site-wide position changes, so it is up to your league commissioner to decide how to handle any player position changes after the season starts.

Regardless of how Rotoworld.com has a player position listed, the commissioner can use the above Change Player Position option to over-ride any player's position.

In addition, if you wish to allow your owners to be able to change the player's position, you can enable the option "Allow owners to change the position of these players back and forth between the MyFantasyLeague.com default position and your custom position" on the Change Player Position screen. Then after that is done, the owners will be able to use the For Owners Change My Player Position option to adjust the position of their player each week as needed.

Source: http://www03.myfantasyleague.com/2016/support


So based off of that answer, it would be up to us on how we determine a position change. I have a few ideas that we could discuss for next season:

1. Allow owner to request change, but owner can only change that player's position once. Once changed the player remains at that position for the rest of the year.

2. Once more than 50% of games played (minimum 5 games) are played at the new position, we automatically change the player's position (or similar to first option - owner can request change)

3. Do nothing. Once player starts season at one position, he remains at that position for the remainder of the year.

Any other thoughts?

[Preds]

6E. Player Eligibility

Players must be listed on an NFL roster at one of the positions listed under 6A. Players are eligible to score for any offensive play regardless of where they are listed in your line-up, however individual players will NOT receive points for Special Teams play. Any points scored on ST will be credited to the D/ST position.

EXAMPLE 1: Tory Holt is listed as a WR, but he can also score points on a rushing play.

EXAMPLE 2: Peyton Manning is listed as a QB, but he can also score points on a receiving play.

EXAMPLE 3: Dante Hall is a WR who also returns punts and kicks, he can score on any offensive play, however he will NOT earn any individual points for any Special Teams TD's since those will be credited to the Defense/Special Teams position.

6F. Starting Position

Players can only be inserted into a starting line-up at a position for which they are listed on their NFL teams depth chart.

EXAMPLE: Deion Sanders is listed as CB/WR and can be started at WR in the league. If he is listed as CB but NOT as WR, then he cannot be played at WR.

Based on the way the rules are written, the position has to be in line with the NFL teams depth chart. Montgomery was recently moved to RB by the Packers thus can only start as a RB. If he's officially moved back to WR he then can only be used as a WR. IMO it's a move that gets made whenever the NFL team officially makes the change with their depth charts.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

And what if it's an RFA who's salary was determined based on the preseason position? Any mid-year increase/decreases?

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Royal Hawaiian Opihi

And what if it's an RFA who's salary was determined based on the preseason position? Any mid-year increase/decreases?

I see no language about adjusting salary, just positions.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

Language? I was just bringing it up as something to think about.

[Liquid Swords]

Originally Posted by Preds

Based on the way the rules are written, the position has to be in line with the NFL teams depth chart. Montgomery was recently moved to RB by the Packers thus can only start as a RB. If he's officially moved back to WR he then can only be used as a WR. IMO it's a move that gets made whenever the NFL team officially makes the change with their depth charts.

Good point. So that means that we need to change Ty Montgomery's position to RB. Something for Killer Bees to be aware of in Frenzy.

[predator06]

He is listed at WR on the Packers official depth chart.

http://www.packers.com/team/depth-chart.html

If I bring him up and he is changed on the Packers site to RB, it will kind of screw me since I'll never start him over Gurley or Zeke.

Hmmmmmm. Does our rulebook supersede the MFL site?

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

I think we go with Packers' depth chart.

[Preds]

NFL.com is noteworthy for not having accurate depth charts. I know we've always used MFL as the official position charts as far as I recall and they rely on Rotoworld which has Montgomery listed as both RB and WR. Footballguys now has him as RB.

I read a couple articles I'll have to dig up that said the Pack has moved him to RB and he's working with the RB coaches and players and not WRs now.

The issue is a player who gets the majority of snaps out of position is really no longer that original position.

[Preds]

Aaron Rodgers thinks he's a RB now and so does Vegas seeing as Fandual has moved him to RB. That's big money in play there on the position call.

[Preds]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/10413/ty-montgomery

Rotoworld is listing Ty Montgomery as a RB. They have him on the depth chart as both RB and WR, but on the profile page list him as a RB. Frenzy uses MFL for official depth charts, MFL uses rotoworld, however doesn't process in-season changes. We should be going by rotoworld for in-season changes.

[Liquid Swords]

Originally Posted by Preds

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/10413/ty-montgomery

Rotoworld is listing Ty Montgomery as a RB. They have him on the depth chart as both RB and WR, but on the profile page list him as a RB. Frenzy uses MFL for official depth charts, MFL uses rotoworld, however doesn't process in-season changes. We should be going by rotoworld for in-season changes.

I agree

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

(Thumbs up)

[predator06]

Our rules states:

6F. Starting Position
Players can only be inserted into a starting line-up at a position for which they are listed on their NFL teams depth chart.

His NFL team is the Packers. Their depth chart is on their website. http://www.packers.com/team/depth-chart.html

[emerald]

I agree with Mike (Killer Bees) and Jim (Commish) that as rules presently state we use the teams depth charts (Ty Montgomery is WR). We can vote to change it in the future but not for the present ongoing 2016 week 8. Starting line ups should be adjusted accordingly.

[Preds]

Frenzy does not use NFL.com for depth charts or positions. NFL.com and team websites (which correlate with NFL.com) are often inaccurate and out of date. We've always used MFL for positions and they use rotoworld. MFL does not adjust positions in-season, they leave that to individual leagues. This it's our responsibility to make positional changes when they occur and it's logical that we go to MFL's source (rotoworld) to determine current roster positions.

The rules state you can't start a player out of position. According to Rototworld, MFL's source Montgomery is currently a RB and thus cannot be started as a WR. Doing so would create unfair positional advantage by allowing you to start 3 RBs instead of the max 2.

[predator06]

Originally Posted by Preds

Based on the way the rules are written, the position has to be in line with the NFL teams depth chart.

Originally Posted by Preds

IMO it's a move that gets made whenever the NFL team officially makes the change with their depth charts.

Why the change in opinion?

Our rulebook clearly states: "their NFL teams depth chart" yes?

The problem with doing it by any way expect our rule book is the subjectivity. I have him on a Yahoo league and he's listed at WR today. In fact, when you google "packers depth chart", the first FIVE things that come up are packers.com, espn.com, ourlads.com, foxsports.com, cbssports.com and they all have him as a WR.

With Cobb out today, who knows...he may be full time at WR?

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

Originally Posted by predator06

Our rules states:

6F. Starting Position
Players can only be inserted into a starting line-up at a position for which they are listed on their NFL teams depth chart.

His NFL team is the Packers. Their depth chart is on their website. http://www.packers.com/team/depth-chart.html

Well... despite the almost uniform agreement about the way the Frenzy has operated using MFL depth charts (which is correct)... if our rules state NFL team's depth charts I'm leaning towards honoring that. Clearly that needs to be corrected. But for this week (remainder of he season?), we probably should allow it if the Pack still marks him as a WR.

[Preds]

Montgomery has lined up as a RB in the backfield over 70% of his snaps. He's clearly being utilized as a RB which is why respectable site has moved him to RB. Including the high stakes gambling like FanDual.

Frenzy has always used MFL. MFL has stated their source is Rotoworld. I think it's a mistake to allow a player to play out of position once it's become clear that he is being utiilzed at another and multiple sources including MFLs have made he position change.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

I agree. But it looks like our rules state otherwise (at least in one place)... that's all I'm saying. But we need to close that loophole.

[Preds]

The rules state the teams depth chart in a generic manner. They don't specify a teams website, NFL.com or any other source. Team websites are inaccurate sources of depth charts which is why we've always used MFL for official position designations and depth charts and their source is rotoworld.

Let be honest here, the Bees want to take advantage of a clear in-season positional change that multiple sources agree on. Including the Packers HOF QB.

You've always been one to honor the intent of the rules as well as teams. Bees intent is to take advantage of a rare in-season positional change that will give him the ability to start 3 RBs each week which the rules do not allow for.

[predator06]

Commish....please make a final ruling by noon. Every other debate appears to go directly to the rule book. Being new to the league, I don't know if any rule has ever been modified mid season. From what I've seen, if there is something that needs to be addressed, it is voted on for next year.

[Preds]

Put it this way, nowhere do the rules specify the definition of a source for a teams depth chart, however, Frenzy historically has gone by MFL and their source rotoworld.

IMO ruling away from MFL/rotoworld as the source is inconsistent with the historical operations of the league.

[predator06]

As I said, the first 5 entries on google show ty as a WR. It can't be generic. It says "their teams depth chart". If the official packers depth chart isn't updated, the rule book should specify which of the 100 specific sites depth chart should be used

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

I am a HUGE intent of the rules (as opposed to letter of the rules) guy. It does appear that Montgomery has transitioned to RB. However, the NFL/MFL/Rotowirld depth chart issue isn't clear in our rules (though we NEED to clean that up immediately). I'm going to rule Montgomery is eligible to be played as a WR THIS WEEK. But I'll do more research by next week and may reverse this ruling for the remainder of the season. Thanks to both Mikes for presenting their cases.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by predator06

As I said, the first 5 entries on google show ty as a WR. It can't be generic. It says "their teams depth chart". If the official packers depth chart isn't updated, the rule book should specify which of the 100 specific sites depth chart should be used

Be honest, what is your intent for Montgomery? It's not for points as a WR where he has fewer than 30% of his snaps and little production. Your want his points out of the backfield as a RB where he's taken over 70% of his snaps but you want them credited as a WR as it gives you an advantage since he's playing out of his original position. Clearly you don't see the same value for him as a RB over your other RBS.

Again from a precedent standpoint, historically Frenzy has relied on MFL not team or NFL websites. MFL has stated they use rotoworld as their source, however, leave it up to leagues to make in-season adjustments. Rotoworld has Montgomery listed as a RB. Thus he should be moved to RB in Frenzy.

[predator06]

Sounds fair Commish. Thank you.

Mike - he caught more passes last week (10) then rushing attempts (9). The previous week he had 10 receptions and 3 rushing attempts.

To answer your question, my intent...after this weeks game are done, I will likely start Zeke and Gurley at RB for the remainder of the year. I would like Ty, who I drafted at WR to play WR if he can crack my weak WR starting lineup.

Clearly I don't see the same value for him as a RB over my other RBS. Who knows...maybe I will bench Gurley or trade Ty if he is actually changed on the Packers official website/depth chart.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by predator06

Sounds fair Commish. Thank you.

Mike - he caught more passes last week (10) then rushing attempts (9). The previous week he had 10 receptions and 3 rushing attempts.

To answer your question, my intent...after this weeks game are done, I will likely start Zeke and Gurley at RB for the remainder of the year. I would like Ty, who I drafted at WR to play WR if he can crack my weak WR starting lineup.

Clearly I don't see the same value for him as a RB over my other RBS. Who knows...maybe I will bench Gurley or trade Ty if he is actually changed on the Packers official website/depth chart.

He caught those passes out of the flat from the RB position. Over 70% of his snaps have been lined up as a RB in the backfield. Those catches are no different from any other RB who makes outlet catches out of the backfield.

[Preds]

And again NFL.com and team websites are not and haven't been Frenzys source for depth charts and positions. Frenzy has historically used MFL as our determination and they use rototworld.

Team websites and NFL.com are historically inaccurate realtime sources and often delayed to adjustments. Same with google which takes time to populate changes.

[predator06]

Jim - I agree with the intent. Kind of like the Bible or the Constitution. Keep in mind if when Lacy comes back, how can we judge when it appears that he has transitioned back to full time WR?