Redo rules to determine rookie drafting order

[Burt the Butcher]

Another idea to discuss... revisiting the top pick(s) for the rookie draft scenario. Finding a way to help "encourage" teams to remain active & competitive down the stretch, even when they're out of playoff contention.

In a couple of my leagues, we hold a Toilet Bowl to coincide with Championship, with bottom 4 teams. In the first round, the winners advance. In the final, the loser gets the 1st pick. Just an idea to throw around.

In another league, we are also discussing letting the bottom 4 teams set the opposing teams lineup for final 2 weeks.

The biggest problem I see, is that this does not encourage an inactive owner to try to make their team better. But allowing winning teams to advance in first round of Toilet Bowl, would at least be incentive to try to field a somewhat competitive team.

[Liquid Swords]

I like the idea. I'm thinking Toilet Bowl Champion gets 1st pick.

[Burt the Butcher]

so winners advance to chumpionship, and winner of final gets 1st pick, rather than loser? Either way, I think this would give teams incentive to stay competitive.

[Liquid Swords]

If not winner of TB, then what is incentive? Then you'd have teams trying to lose TB championship to get number one pick, right?

Also if we do TB to determine draft order of bottom 6 what about only for the 1st rnd. 2nd, 3rd, 4th all based on current settings.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

Looking for other options... any more suggestions?
We could do a REVERSE lottery style for the bottom six... but instead of like the NBA (where the worst teams get the most chances to gain the top pick), the best teams would get more chances (ie. more 'tickets' for the lottery). This might encourage people to try their best to "earn" the top pick. We'd probably have to have a rule that no team could fall more than 3 places (ie. the worst team would have no worse than the #4 pick).

[RManz]

Really like the combo of meaningful competition in the bottom six combined with chances. This way the worst team would pick no worse than 3rd. Seems like a good balance between keeping motivated, but not completely hosing the worst team who may just not be able to be competitive.

[zdravko27]

Here are three options I used back in my day. Neither is perfect, because all of them are dependent on luck of the week (injuries, matchups, gameflow, opponent scoring), but those are the pitfalls of H2H FF.

* Bottom-four teams play in round-robin format during Weeks 13-16. To level the playing field, the teams that scored better during the regular season are handicapped each week by the differences in points divided by the number of regular season games (see example). Winner of the round-robin gets 1.01, and so on. One important caveat: if you hold someone's first-rounder, you set their lineup during the round-robin. Otherwise, they may have no incentive to compete.

Example: Seed 12 scored 130 points less than Seed 9 during 13 regular season games. So when Seed 12 plays Seed 9 in the round-robin, Seed 12 starts with a 130/13 = 10 point advantage.

* The "play to lose" tourney - a bottom-six playoff system where losers advance. You set your opponent's lineup with the objective of having your team lose. This ensures both teams play best lineup. "Biggest loser" gets 1.01 and so on. Lowest two seeds get a round 1 bye.

* Tiered Toilet Bowl series (using the handicap system from the first example)

Week 14:
G1 Seed 12 vs Seed 11
G2 Seed 10 vs Seed 9

Week 15:
G3 Winner G2 vs Loser G1

Week 16:
G4 Winner G3 vs Winner G1

Draft picks:

Winner G4 = 1.01
Loser G4 = 1.02
Loser G3 = 1.03
Loser G2 = 1.04

Same caveat about holding others' first-rounders applies.

[Burt the Butcher]

Personally, using The Champs examples, I like the 2nd option, with a first option twist of handicaps given out...this way the better team would still have equal chance of losing...

But this does create more work for someone to determine the handicaps...

I like the lottery system too..not sure I would like giving the better teams more chances...do it straight up like NBA does...

[zdravko27]

The one problem I've had with the second option is that it does nothing to reward proactive behavior and to fix the issue it was designed to address (tanking, lack of interest). If you think you won't win the league, your best strategy is still to tune out as early as possible.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

I kinda like the "play to lose" format where your OPPONENT sets your roster. Though, conceivably, you could dump your middle-of-the-road players prior to the playoffs (the ones you weren't planning on RFA'ing).

The one with the percentage points sounds cool... but is another step that requires a bit of work to determine (though not a major mathematical formula!).

[Burt the Butcher]

yah, really don't think there is a fool proof way of encouraging teams to 'perform' all season long...but great ideas to attempt to make it more so....

[zdravko27]

I would say whatever model we decide on should accomplish two things.

One, offer teams the opportunity of a modest improvement in draft position if they do well late in the season.

Two, eliminate the "guaranteed-best-possible-pick-for-doing-nothing" strategy as a viable option. A bad team needs to be given a solid advantage when competing with others for draft picks, but its owner should also have to take active steps in order to earn the high pick.

[Flaxwless]

How about the non playoff teams each get a "set" percentage chance at the 1st pick but also have a playoff where each win increases your odds of winning the 1st pick?

For example:

Before playoffs odd of getting 1st pick
12th: 25%
11th: 15%
10th: 10%
9th: 7%
8th: 5%
7th: 3%

Total = 65% odds of getting 1st pick.

Then we have a playoffs for the remaining 35%.

Winners of 1st round get + 5% added to their base %.
Winners of 2nd round get another + 5% added to their base %.
Loser of "Toilet Bowl" gets another + 5% added to their base %.
Winner of "Toilet Bowl" gets another 10% added to their base %.

The 7th and 8th place teams will get 1st round byes. This allows the crappier teams (12-9) to potentially earn more % points vs. the 7th and 8th place teams.

If a 12-9th place team wins the Toilet Bowl they could earn + 20% to their base total or + 15% for 2nd place.

If the 7th or 8th place team wins the Toilet Bowl they only get +15% or +10% for 2nd. Since their "base %" is so low even if they win the Toilet Bowl the 8th will max their odds of the 1st pick at 20% or 15% and 7th will have 18% and 13% which are still less than the worst team in the league.

Then we have a lottery with the set percentage points for the 1st pick ONLY, then picks #2-12 are set according to record.

Hopefully, I explained it clearly enough and I open to adjusting the % since I just put this together quickly, although I think it works well as is.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

Wow... that was an "outside of the box" idea. Very interesting!

[Liquid Swords]

Frank, I think you may be on to something here. Although we would need to adjust the %s a little since 1-6 would be in regular playoffs and 7-12 would be in toilet bowl. Maybe 9 = 7%, 8 = 5% and 7 = 3%?

[Burt the Butcher]

YES!! I love it

[Flaxwless]

Originally Posted by Liquid Swords

Frank, I think you may be on to something here. Although we would need to adjust the %s a little since 1-6 would be in regular playoffs and 7-12 would be in toilet bowl. Maybe 9 = 7%, 8 = 5% and 7 = 3%?

DOH!

Yah that works out perfectly!

So 7th and 8th get 1st round byes and 12-9 face off in the 1st round.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

Want to clarify all points & we can put it up for a vote?!?

[Flaxwless]

Originally Posted by Royal Hawaiian Opihi

Want to clarify all points & we can put it up for a vote?!?

I edited the original post with the proposal to reflect the new changes.

[Burt the Butcher]

Looks good..but I think we should have the lottery for at least the first 2 pics, if not 3....

So...how would we do it? In order to give equal chances, you would have to have 100 tickets....I guess we could use WebCam and have a couple officials watching the drawing take place? This could be fun!!

[Flaxwless]

I'm not sure what people think of the %, but just food for thought with the current %. If the 9th or 10th spot wins the Toilet Bowl they up their odds from 10 and 7% to up to 30% and 27% which is slightly more than the worst team if they don't win the 1st round (25%) and significantly more than the 2nd place team (15%) if they don't win any playoff games.

Not sure if you guys wanted the worst team to ALWAYS have the best odds at the 1st pick come lottery time. In the grand scheme of things it may not matter much since the worst team can drop no more than 2nd.

[Flaxwless]

Originally Posted by Burt the Butcher

Looks good..but I think we should have the lottery for at least the first 2 pics, if not 3....

So...how would we do it? In order to give equal chances, you would have to have 100 tickets....I guess we could use WebCam and have a couple officials watching the drawing take place? This could be fun!!

Open to first two or 3 picks be determined by the lottery, but I would prefer Top 2 since I would hate having the worst team in the league drop out of the Top 3.

[Flaxwless]

Originally Posted by Burt the Butcher

Looks good..but I think we should have the lottery for at least the first 2 pics, if not 3....

So...how would we do it? In order to give equal chances, you would have to have 100 tickets....I guess we could use WebCam and have a couple officials watching the drawing take place? This could be fun!!

There are dice generators online. We could roll a 100 sided dice.

Have the worst team select a "block of numbers = %", 2nd worst, etc...

Roll the dice and voila.

[Burt the Butcher]

sounds like a plan..I agree...just top 2 picks go to lottery....I would rather have that, than only top pick..a little more to play for....and I like the percentages...an incentive to keep your team competitive

[emerald]

So where do we stand on this? Can a proposal be submitted for a vote?
I would like to move on this before the 2011 season starts.

[Royal Hawaiian Opihi]

Burt has been the "proposal draftsman." I'll let him put it up for a vote. Seems like we've reached a consensus on this, anyway!

[Burt the Butcher]

Sorry guys...mind has been elsewhere as has my wireless router...

anyone can make a rule proposal...doesn't just have to be one person...

But I will try to finalize our discussions into a vote soon...

[emerald]

OK...How about Franks post with lottery for 1st 2 picks (so worst record team couldn't fall out of top 3) ...

How about the non playoff teams each get a "set" percentage chance at the 1st pick but also have a playoff where each win increases your odds of winning the 1st pick?

For example:

Before playoffs odd of getting 1st pick
12th: 25%
11th: 15%
10th: 10%
9th: 7%
8th: 5%
7th: 3%

Total = 65% odds of getting 1st pick.

Then we have a playoffs for the remaining 35%.

Winners of 1st round get + 5% added to their base %.
Winners of 2nd round get another + 5% added to their base %.
Loser of "Toilet Bowl" gets another + 5% added to their base %.
Winner of "Toilet Bowl" gets another 10% added to their base %.

The 7th and 8th place teams will get 1st round byes. This allows the crappier teams (12-9) to potentially earn more % points vs. the 7th and 8th place teams.

If a 12-9th place team wins the Toilet Bowl they could earn + 20% to their base total or + 15% for 2nd place.

If the 7th or 8th place team wins the Toilet Bowl they only get +15% or +10% for 2nd. Since their "base %" is so low even if they win the Toilet Bowl the 8th will max their odds of the 1st pick at 20% or 15% and 7th will have 18% and 13% which are still less than the worst team in the league.

Then we have a lottery with the set percentage points for the 1st 2 picks ONLY, then picks #3-12 are set according to record.

[Burt the Butcher]

sounds good to me...with the 100 sided dice program out there, that will work well...I know we used something like that in a startup league a couple years ago, and you can email out the results to several people, so its not like someone has to be held accountable for accurate results....

Give me a day or two...I can go through the discussion threads and create polls to try and resolve the voting for all out standing issues...

[emerald]

I'll give you a month or 2...you seem to have your hands full with Baseball!

In the proposal we would still seed the playoff teams the same by playoff finish...right?